PART-5: "human?" IT'S CALLED "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY", MR PRESIDENT!

"Siziwe" a.k.a "Sighs", the self-professed
Nelson Mandela Cousin
who achieved generalcy and other ranking
through adultery/prostitution
with at least one Raymond Lentsoe in Year 2000.
Goodman Manyanya Phiri, according to Mr Jacob Zuma,
must for 11 years now therefore continue to suffer
for blowing the whistle against this relative to a Mandela
that Zuma calls "The Father of The Nation South Africa".
Her official name is
Winnie Ntombizodwa Zini-Bobelo

PART FIVE (5)  OF TEN (10)

Dear Mr President Jacob Zuma, Your Excellency

Human rights cannot, as Lindiwe Sisulu's actions are suggesting with her continued unlawful acts against Phiri, mere paper human rights, but they are also rights for Goodman Manyanya Phiri.  If the administration of Your Excellency Zuma (like the pro-Eastern-Cape tribalistic regimes of  Mandela and Mbeki) through Sisulu's roughshod actions, fail to treat me within my rights enshrined in the constitution regarding the kangaroo court she and her fellow Eastern-Cape tribalists (assisted by a few toadying white racists) initiated against me back in 2001 for doing what is right for my land (BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON CORRUPTION)....

...What hope do I have Mr President Zuma that your administration, of all the administrations post-apartheid, will finally repatriate and COMPENSATE my first wife and our children, still illegally banished (since 1994) by the self-same tribe of Lindiwe Sisulu with the particular hand of "Freedom Fighters" Monezi Gchilitshe and Benson Mandindi acting under the orders (implicit) of another Eastern-Caper, Clarennce Mlamli Makwetu?

ON THIS DAY, SOUTH AFRICA'S HUMAN RIGHTS DAY, WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD JOINS SOUTH AFRICANS IN CELEBRATING ONE OF THE MOST GLORIOUS CONSTITUTIONS ON EARTH, I HAVE CHOSEN MR PRESIDENT, TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN LINDIWE SISULU'S KANGAROO COURTS, A 10-YEAR-OLD PROCESS WHICH, FOR BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS AS TO HOW TO FURTHER VICIMIZE PHIRI FOR BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON HER FELLOW THEMBU-TRIBESWOMAN-GENERAL WINNIE NTOMBIZODWA BOBELO-ZINI, SHE HAS RESUMED AS OF LAST THURSDAY THE 17TH MARCH 2011.

THE TWO BIGGEST FLOPS AND UNDOABILITIES ABOUT THIS "TRIAL" ARE.

1.  SISULU'S SO-CALLED EVIDENCE AGAINST PHIRI WAS COLLECTED IN A MANNER THAT FLOUTS FAIR LEGAL PROCEDURES IN THAT SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WERE PUT IN AN A FELLOW-EASTERN-CAPE-BORN MAJOR GENERAL ENOCK MASHOALA'S BOARD OF INQUIRY YET PHIRI WAS NOT CALLED TO CROSS EXAMINE OR OPPOSE THE "WITNESSES" AND THEIR EXPECTORATIONS FOR PRO-SISULU EVIDENCE.  NOR HAS THAT MASHOALA REPORT TO DATE BEEN MADE TO PHIRI DESPITE SEVERAL HIGH-COURT APPEALS BY PHIRI....[(to the reader of this post, Blogger's elucidation on the Mashoala character, please check the yellow highlight to be found here)]....

2.  SISULU IS UNLAWFULLY REFUSING TO PAY COURT FEES FOR PHIRI JUST AS THEY WERE PAID FOR YOUR EXCELLENCY ZUMA IN YOUR "CORRUPTION" TRIAL.  WHERE IS THE EQUALITY ENSHRINED BY "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY" CONSTITUTION IF ZUMA BY VIRTUE OF MEMBERSHIP TO THE RULING PARTY CAN HAVE STATE PAYMENT OF HIS EXPENSES BUT PHIRI JUST BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER AND WITH NO POLITICAL PARTY TO BACK HIM?

3. LINDIWE SISULU KNOWS VERY WELL THAT SOUTH AFRICA'S CONSTITUTION AND REQUISITE LAWS MAKE IT UNLAWFUL FOR HER TO PROSECUTE PHIRI SEEING THAT I WAS PROSECUTED (AND THERE IS AMPLE PROOF OF MY BLOG AND COURT PAPERS ALL AROUND) BECAUSE OF DARING TO EXPOSE NELSON MANDELA'S COUSIN, BRIGADIER GENERAL BOBELO-ZINI WHO, AS A MAJOR WHEN I BLEW THE WHISTLE, HAD NO RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH THE BEDROOOM WITH AT LEAST ONE COLONEL RAYMOND LENTSOE) AND STILL HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH SISULU'S THEMBU TRIBALISM AND EASTERN-CAPE REGIONALISM) TO REMAIN A BRIGADIER GENERAL OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS AND SHOULD BE PROSECUTED  INSTEAD TOGETHER WITH HER BOYFRIEND LENTSOE... NOT PHIRI

1)       ((Court re-opens))

2)      15 COURT CASE OF LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI  COMMENCES ON 9 June 2003

3)      JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The case of Lieutenant Colonel resumes on 9 June 2003 at 10:35 ±.          Present court are The Accused and his legal representative, also the  prosecutor and on the bench mvsPlf, Colonel 1Pnt=r and one of the assessors, Lieutenant Colonel Mosiane. Present is Colonel Plabusela, the other assessor. A000rdng to Lieutenant Colonel Mosiane she had phoned this morning stating that she had problems with transport, taxis from Soweto. This court cannot wait for her indefinitely, the whole day and this court deems it necessary, and with further discussions off the record with oro=etution and defence counsel, that this case is being postpc Pd at this .......stage until tomorrow in     , this samP court "A" Court at 0:30 for 09:00. The court manager has already been  informed  and.he will_hopefully get in touch with Colonel. .:.:abusel.a. advise her that this case will continue tomorrow morning 10 June 2003.             Prosecution and Defence Counsel, you confirm this .is fine with .you both?
PROSECUTOR:           Confirmation from prosecution, Judge.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Confirmation from defence_
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you, Major and Colonel.
(Case is postponed until 10 June 2003)
((Court re-opens))
COURT CASE OF LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI  COMMENCES ON 10 June 2003
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The case of Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri resumes on 10 June 2003 at 11:12.       The Accused is present in court,                his legal representative,               defence counsel, prosecution counsel and myself Colonel Venter the presiding officer as well as the one assessor Lieutenant Colonel Masiane. This case cannot, at this stage, continue because of the absence of Colonel Lorraine Mametsi Mabusela who is the senior assessor in this case. Her present whereabouts seem to be unknown.           We have heard stories about her having transport problems.  We've also heard that may be she's in Burundi. We do not know, but the court manager will try and find out  for us. In any case we cannot proceed today and off record  prosecution counsel and defence counsel hate informed the court that 24 and 25 July 2003 will be suitable dates fD.r. further proceedings in this case                Do you confirm that,  both of you?
PROSECUTOR: Judge.
JUD(2,E:       is it tine with the defence counsel_?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Confi=ed, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right. Then this case is ocstponed until 24/25 July 2003 provisionally in this same court, "A" Court  but               '11 see whatthe Notice of Enrolment or Court roll for that day says. . .Okay, Colonel, your case  is-.remanded until 24 July 2003.            
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yes, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Stand back.

4)      (Case is remanded until 24 July 2003)-- 35     (End of tape 9)

(END OF PROCEEDINGS.)

COMMENT BY BLOGGER: THERE SEEMS TO BE A MASSIVE GAP HERE IN TERMS OF THE TRANSCRIPTS AND THE RESUMPTION IS AS FOLLOWS:>>>

5)      JUDGE KOLBE:           Or would it be necessary for the court to ask them to be here, these new members who are ... yeah, I just want you to quickly address me on that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I would say we have no objections whether they are here or not. ... (unclear) ... that the assessors that are on record ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... are the assessors that will continue with the case.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As to whether ... (unclear) ... is not for the defence to comment on.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We only look at ... (unclear) ... proceed with the matter with assessors that have been indicated by my client.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes. And the assessors on the bench now
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... sitting on ... is still acceptable to the defence counsel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. Then perhaps then on ... I can excuse the ... let's call them temporary assessors, and I would like to apologise from the bench's side for this ... let's call it interference with your diary, bu-. it is nice to know that should something happen and then between now and the next trial date anything can happen, we can press on your buttons and you will be able to serve on this court without possible applications for recusal. Anything from your side, Madam Prosecutor ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Nothing, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... on the arrangements? Thank you. So as it stands then the assessors will then be available for trial, Colonel LIabusela and Colonel Motseano ... Lieutenant Colonel Motseano. Just to fresh my memory, anything else that we discussed with trial date for the new judge, ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         If I, maybe...
JUDGE KOLBE:           I haven't mentioned it the ... Madam Prosecutor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... we discussed in chambers with ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           The new judge, the name of the new judge and ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Yes, the new name of the judge and then a possible date, and then that will be ... (unclear) ... from the prosecution counsel and my learned colleague, the defence counsel wishes to put on record.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes, fine.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I can just put on record that due to my unavailability there are .. the number of senior departmental judges who can take this case are now being reduced to, let's say, only a few members remaining. The person I had in  mind, I must just tell that one of the reasons why I cannot take this case as well is due, ... one of the personal reasons is I am going to be acting Director, Departmental judges and as far as my duties I have to appoint judges to the bench and arrange with them their availability. Now the appointment will have effect 30 January it will start then, and in the meantime I have spoken to some of the departmental judges just to find out who will be available for trial and what dates, and the person I spoke to is a Colonel Miguel (Michael?) Venter, he's a senior departmental judge and he is from the Legal Satellite Office in B'oemfontein. Colonel Venter is not available until 24 February and if I can just cut my thoughts into words here, I'm thinking that ... I was thinking of going, post:_oning then the case for trial on 24 February in front of Colonel Venter as the newly appointed judge, and then putting down the case, let's book the court for the-: for say three days, it might even be more, at this stage I have no idea, and then for trial date to put it down for trial so that the prosecution can call her witnesses. All of us present here know that this case has been coming for quite a long t.me now, and it's in the interests of justice both to be fair to the prosecution co_nsel as well as the defence counsel that we try to then really on that day proceed with trial with the calling of prosecution witnesses. Any other possible applicat.ons that may come from the defence's side or perhaps the prosecution's side tnen to be dealt with by the newly appointed judge. Madam Prosecutor, would yo like to address me then on your ... one of your witnesses?

6)      PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Yes, Judge, the prosecution has one major concern at this stage and that is that the case has been coming since r:arch 2001. Now we all know, even my learned colleague across the way from me will agree with me that as time goes on peoples' memories fade, so prosecution has definitely suffered that prejudice thus far. In addition, prosecuton is suffering the prejudice in the sense that witnesses ... (unclear) ... andis yery difficult for prosecution to bring witnesses to court when it's merely for a postponement or for another pre-trial procedure, therefore, Judge, I wish to place it on record that one of the witnesses, one of the prosecution witnesses finds himself in an African country, I'm informed that that is in Nigeria but it stands correcting upon what I have been told, but in an African country and every time that the trial is to proceed he ... or ... yes, I cannot say that every time because I haven't been the prosecutor up until this date ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes, yes. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that's another ... (unclear) ... anew prosecutor.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         but I am led to understand that he has been here on a few occasions, ready to testify only to be told that he can go back.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And I'm also led to understand that he has done this at own cost each time, yeah. Even if we were to start paying his costs for him to come 15    ... for the purposes of trial every time we would possibly be executing privileged expenses if it were for merely another postponement.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         So the conclusion of this argument is that this specific witness will not be at court on the day that we postpone to, unless defence 20         counsel can give prosecution the assurance, 100% assurance that the case will  continue on that day. As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Thank you. Can I hear you on that, Mr Defence Counsel, please, is it possible at this stage to give such an undertaking?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, regrettably it's not possible for defence counsel to make undertakings as the continuity or otherwise of the trial at the next appearance for the obvious reasons that prosecution has amended the charge sheet, and the defence counsel speaks before this court that amended charge sheet is not before defence counsel. Counsel will need to take instructions from that and that involves a number of witnesses arising from consultation, in specific instance that might be dealing with aspects of the amendment because that will have a bearing on the cross-examination, but we can proceed everything being equal on the coming days and maybe the next court may ... (unclear) ... whether we'll deal with the postponement on cross-examination or not. But we're just indicating possibilities now because we are really in ...(unclear) ... I don't have the charge sheet, I have to get the instructions on the amendments either from client and also to see which are the possible witnesses affected by that amendment, what are they going to say because as the court is aware when we have to cross-examine on the evidence given by the state witness we have ... (unclear) ... to indicate what our version will be, so I don't have ... (unclear) ... version on this particular aspect from our side. So those are matters that make it now that I can't say with ... (unclear) ... if the case when we are clear ... (unclear) ... for successive dates, it  may proceed on that day and as I've indicated we may have to postpone to other dates  depending on the court ... (unclear) ... to that application on the grounds we may have have to advance.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah.
JUDGE KOLBE:           But at this stage can you foresee any other pre-trial perhaps applications ... (unclear) ... can we put it down for trial, or ... BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:     We ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... for the prosecution as ... (unclear) ... to call some of her witnesses, even so it might not be the witness she referred to coming from Ni... from the African country, if she calls some of her ,witnesses? Yeah. You understand her predicament? I ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I understand.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I just want to know ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I understand ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... in what way can the ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... defence counsel assist her ... the court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we want to assist the cc_irt judge, in the ...unfortunately court is sitting in a very unfortunate situaton because of the ... (unclear) ... matter which the court ... (unclear) ... I've triei my best to brief my colleague ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... to bring her up to speed.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, I know that ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                Yes, yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... another defence has ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, that's another matter ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... because she's also new.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: You know, the things that she might have addressed the court on were not precisely, because that witness Colonel Johannes Hendrik Beyers Kleynhans was not 5   here before court ... (unclear) ...and the postponement was caused by other reasons. If he was here at some point he was not known to us that he's here.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We have never dealt with the question of that particular witness being present and not confronting whatever situation.
JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah.  So we don't know exactly, there was never a time when this matter was ready to proceed and the witnesses were there and it did not proceed.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Now, coming to your final question, Judge, the whether are there going to be any applications ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           No, I'm talking about ... yeah, ja, the
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           .. the name of the judge that I mentioned to you, I don't whether ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: About that, Judge, that judge be .. the indication of my client we're prepared to get into the box and give that version is that we can't cross that bridge at the moment.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah. Yeah, I understand .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. We can't cross that bridge at the moment.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I understand that you haven't seen the ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. Yes, ... (unclear) ... the ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. No, I don't think it be necessary.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... the court disappears, then the court is back.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, yeah. At the moment we've got a ... ja. I do understand that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           That you cannot exercise ybur right to ' Make an application for recusal if you haven't seen the person on the bench yet.
 JUDGE KOLBE:          So ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thanks, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           But ... yeah, that is why I think it would be best to then reserve a few dates for this trial, ... (unclear) ... hear how many witnesses are 5               involved in this matter, and whether it's going to be a lengthy trial.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. And while the considering tne number of dates it what is my second great grand uncle's son to me? postpone to, ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... I've explained to my colleague prosecution counsel that the previous prosecution counsel ...
JUDGE KOLBE: BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:   Yes?
... (unclear) ... direction of the court to assist in getting reports. There's an important report of the investigations bearing on this trial ... on this matter which is in the office of the Chief of the A-my, The Accused has tried on his own ... (unclear) ... requesting for those reports which is the Inspector General's reports on the course, this is the Army College course, junior staff course where these charges emanate from.
JUDGE KOLBE: BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:   Yes. Now this report has not been furr:shed to us, it's not in the dockets, we have used the Information Act ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:... the ... (unclear) ... Information Officer was that because of the imminent trial we should rather get these dcournents through the court process, in other words prosecution counsel and the court. JUDGE KOLBE:             Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: This letter was produced before the -court concerning the ... (unclear) ... of Colonel Lüüs ... (unclear) ...decided judge .
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... we showed him the letter and              comments arose from the bench, (1) in the event we apply for an order compelling the state to give us those documents ... (unclear) .,. not competent tomake that kidn of order.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes, that ... no, I ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... I agree with that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. (2) we can only ask prosecution to assist.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And then he asked the previous prosecutor that please assist defence counsel to get the doc... the report which is required.

7)      JUDGE KOLBE:           ... (unclear) ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The court ... (unclear) ... she came back to me and said look, the instructions were she was to get ... (unclear) ... she's not going to assist, now we are sitting with that problem. Now,
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... that is what I indicated to my learned friend, the new one now ... (unclear) ... the one before the court.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes,
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Is that ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Colonel ... Captain van Schalkwyk.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Captain van Stanwyk.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ja, let's get her name ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Is that ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           It's not captain ... (unclear) ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... she must consider making her own decisions and not be bound by a previous colleague.
20 JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
So she must be able to make a decision whether she's assisting us with those reports which she did admit she can see that in the .. (unclear) ... speaks about investigations but she doesn't see the report.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Then I said ... (unclear) ... get this report because ...(unclear) ... in the charges and it can assist the continuity of the trial.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: She said she's going to try, she'll read those documents and the report she gave is that she went as far as the Senior Prosecution Counsel -who said to her "leave this matter" and I even asked her in that in the event you get a decision . which, is. contrary. to assisting us, will you kind ask senior prosecution to write a letter ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . ... to .say. prosecution is not going to assist, because it might assist us at some point if we have to go to the High Court to ask for a High Court order ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... We may produce such a letter which we have from the Information Officer to say you must get it to the ... (unclear) ... and prosecution counsel must give us a letter to say they are not going to assist us.
JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes. That is now ... (unclear) ... it ... (unclear) ...apply for legal assistance ... (unclear) ... the High Court to get the statements we must be able  to produce this letter that we did everything, we have not been assisted so we advised that orders must come from the High Court and please give us legal assistance to pay for that legal team to assist us to get that order.
JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay.
Now I'm mentioning this now, Judge, because you are already looking at dates ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... now the fact of the matter is as my present instruction stands is that we will go to the plea stage ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ...
20 JUDGE KOLBE:     Uhuh?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Once we have pleaded ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... we will re-open the questions of the report ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... because we need them.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And if at this stage therefore when that court will (unclear) ... to show how its assisting us, or.let the matter stand down to be able for us to get relief from the High Court.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes, so I'm just indicating that now in case the court wants to put a number of dates that after plea there maybe that issue, it may come immediately after plea or it mayMay come at the (unclear) 'but' it ... (unclear).... at the end of the close that day ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... we must indicate before the court witnesses that our cross-examination will be hampered by the report ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... it bears on the evidence if they ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... (unclear) ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... so that it will be on record.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Fine. Thank you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thanks, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Just ... your ... from your side, Madam Prosecutor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: Judge, if I may.. (unclear) ... to the beginning of my learned colleague's address to the court just on the point of the charge sheet, it was previously explained to this court and the amendments brought to the charge sheet are not material, there's no new evidence and therefore it is prosecution's submissions that should we then wish to continue ... (unclear) ...that Colonel Simelane would have ample time to consult on the charge sheet.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I'm ... (unclear) ... charge sheet, okay?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         With regard to Colonel Johannes Hendrik Beyers Kleynhans the person ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Is that member that the ... (unclear)       spoke of? PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:             The person who finds himself in an African country, yes, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         My instructions were that indeed he hadn't been in court but that he had been on standby, all the witnesses at every time being on standby in South Africa, in other words in Pretoria, in the vicinity of the court just 25   not present here.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         With regards to dates, Judge, I am very cautious of setting down a trial date for the 24'h if my learned colleague does not know what  he wishes to do at that stage and time, effort et cetera is wasted, and I would almost submit to the court that perhaps we should set a date for the 24th to deal with any possible objections and that perhaps a.week later set a date for three days, or whatever the case maybe for actual trial then. It is merely a suggestion from the prosecution. Then with regard to the doCurnents that my learned colleague addressed you on, yes, I had a look through the investigation. Yes, I saw that mention was made of an investigation that was held at Army College.... you must decide on that as well. Now to help you to decide in that case let's ... (unclear) ... in writing so ... (unclear) ... we did what you wanted ... (unclear) ... Now with this response ... (unclear) ... we can't find another reason ... (unclear) ... get these documents without going to the High Court, please assist us with funds for our lawyers to go to the High Court.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Madam Prosecutor, can I hear you on that?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Judge, this application has been before this court, and it has been before Doctor Hendricks also
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... and both the court and Doctor Hendricks said the same that the Access Information Act is not the correct procedure for the defence counsel to follow.
JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, I've got no say ...
JUDGE KOLBE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: They are not saying so, they are not saying sc. They don't say the procedure is not ... they are dealing with the matter in front of the Information Act ... (unclear) ... application under the Information Act which finally  it was decided by Doctor Hendricks and he wrote a letter, he didn't say ...(unclear) ... he says given the imminence of the trial, there's an imminent trial ..(unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... (unclear) ... okay, ... (unclear) ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. the position is that ... (unclear) ... use the court for that and this is the court process ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Judge, ..
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... that's exactly what I'm saying that ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Doctor Hendricks and his peccie said there is a pending trial with, what they interpreted, criminal proceedings ..
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh? Yes, that's right.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... if I'm not mistaken.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... (unclear) ...  
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And on ... I don't have the documents in front of me, I'm speaking from memory.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And therefore the documents, according to the Act. cannot be given by means of the Act. Okay?
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And then we have ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Section 7 of the Access to Information Act?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Then we have the ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah,     (unclear) ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... application to court, and the court has said ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... we cannot force an application by means of the
Access Information Act, the court has said ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           What ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Sorry, we don't have the capacity ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... the judge in that case?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         It was Colonel Venter. I read the pre-trial ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah. Sorry ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... and if I'm not mistaken it was Colonel Piet Retief Venter.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah. Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         So I don't think the Access to Information Act is the right avenue to follow for the defence counsel, I think perhaps what defence counsel should consider doing if they're really serious about the documents is that another letter be written to the interested parties where they explain their situation, and where they say that these documents are required. Furthermore

8)      JUDGE KOLBE:           Er... yes?

9)      PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... senior prosecution is not going to respond, or give any such letter until a letter is requested by my learned colleague. Senior Prosecution Counsel, or even the Director of Military Prosecutions they do not have to respond to Dr Hendricks' letter, there's no onus on him to respond, so  its not for his action or anything like that, so this is no request for him to respond and therefore if defence counsel and Colonel Phiri would request such a letter from prosecution counsel such an application should be formally so that it can be handled at the decision-making level and not with somebody in

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes. So now ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay, Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... whatever ... all what we're asking from prosecution counsel ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... is that from the request we have made before court now they could indicate now, they've already addressed the court as to why .,. (unclear) ...

JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... they can only write a statement to say that we explained in court we cannot assist you for these reasons ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes. Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... and then give it to us. That letter should suffice, it doesn't have to talk about this letter from Secretary for the Defence ... (unclear) .. it's just to say from your request in court that we assist v✓ith these documents  we cannot assist you for these reasons, and give it to us.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It answers the Secretary for Defence, Dr Hendricks that this avenue cannot work, and if the pros... the Information Act is not the right forum for us to assist us we then have to ask for assistance to go to the High Court. Now, they're able to make decisions now ... (unclear) ... all possible avenues are already covered, we are sitting.. Judge, with stacks of letters written by Colonel Phiri to Chief of the Army and to the Inspector General, we have not even had the courtesy of a response.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Acknowledgement, let us deliver, let's just post it, go to the ... (unclear) ... Chief of Army and say "look, here is the documents" we need documents of course ... (unclear) ... not even acknowleciced. Now ... (unclear) ...it probably                (unclear) ...help us, really we've got to go to the High Court, and   30 vve have to plead for legal assistance from the ... (unclear) ... Defence. All what we are asking is that prosecution counsel to say your request to us in court to assist cannot be met because it's not a matter for us as we see it, then it closes the matter ... (unclear) ... and ... (unclear)  before court about prosecution counsel, we know where to go. We go back to the Minister of Defence .., that 35              avenue is out ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, I do understand.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... the Information Act is not the correct one then we're going to the High Court, please assist us with legal. assistance (unclear) ... we can close ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. Madam Prosecutor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Judge, I just wish to reiterate again, any response
(unclear) ... request would require a request on our side. As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, and ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Can you assist her with such a letter?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Instead of just referring to what transpired in court?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... that what occurred to me now ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Ja?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... is that this record, the matter is on record?
JUDGE KOLBE:           Ja?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: This record can help us. Now the trial is not complete, there are costs involved, if we ask the court ... (unclear) ... record of these  proceedings which has this information now because this thing is already there, all what we need to do is to get a copy of this record. If what they can do for us  is to facilitate that we get a copy of the proceedings of the day.

10)   JUDGE KOLBE: Tien...

11)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Of today?

12)   JUDGE KOLBE: Yeah.

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes, then we will take ... because now all what we said is now on record, we will take this record and take it to ... (,:nclear) ... and say this is their version on record before court so that nothing .. 'vve do not need to reply to that letter or to give a letter.
JUDGE KOLBE:   Or to give her a letter so that she can
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes, yes, ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... give you another letter ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         ... we just state ... yes, we can just ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   Wouldn't it be less Costly if we dealt wish it ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes
JUDGE KOLBE:   .. by way of letter instead of having this record transcribed ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes, because it
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... at the cost to the state?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes, because it
JUDGE KOLBE:   I just want to ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... make that caution.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Because I don't know what ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   What will be the less costly avenue?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         What are we supposed to say in the letter? Are we supposed the request we made in court for the records, that's what we're looking at here, and ... (unclear) ... my learned friend.
JUDGE KOLBE:   Yeah. ... (unclear)           
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: No, no, that's     that you could say that you were in court on ... today and that you understand that prosecution is not to assist in the obtaining of any documents, and we would like a response of the Senior Prosecution Counsel, or Director, Military Prosecutions for that matter, and the prosecutor's approach, something ... (unclear)
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Well, we can do that as long as it doesn't appear now that because we stand by your word here in court we're not dealing with the ... you are their representative and what you are saying you are supposed to be saying what your directors is saying.
JUDGE KOLBE:   No ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         ... what the state ... now if ... (unclear)  questioning (unclear) ... as if I'm not taking your word, if it won't affect          you know, we Will   mention that in the letter that what you are telling in court if ',../hen you read that you don't take it as going to your superiors, you know, because there are other inferences now because we ... of course we'll say as directed by you ..
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: Mm.     
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Okay, if it is ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   Yes, I dOn't want to ... the request for the record of today" it will have to be transcribed in any event ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: JUDGE KOLBE: don't think ...               Will it be transcribed? As far as I know all the others have teen transcribed, I
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: But not ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... why this should not ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: ... if there's no reason for it to be transcribed now imminently, immediately and therefore ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   Okay. Yes?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:
JUDGE KOLBE:   It will be more costly if there is an
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK: It will be costly ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... request for an urgent transcription, yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes, I'm s...may be  then in that letter to the Director of Prosecutions ... Military Prosecutions ...
JUDGE KOLBE:   I think so.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         ... is that we allude to the record being transcribed, if ..  (unclear) ... should not be put in writing for us to convey to the ... (unclear) ... they must assist us ... the state must assist us at their cost to have this done. You know, because I remember getting a letter from Director, Judicial Reviews that the record can be obtained at the end of the trial.
JUDGE KOLBE:   The record ... yeah, the ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         The record of proceedings.
JUDGE KOLBE:   Yeah, for the ... yeah, the ... ja. if it is necessary to cio on appeal we not even know whether the case is going to result in a plea of .. in a  finding of guilty or whatever at this stage, so that is ... I was just thinking of something else, the trial proceedings itself; and I stand to correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understood it that letter of Mr Hendricks ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:         Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:   ... wasn't he alluding to the fact that if this case comes on trial only during trial proceedings the defence counsel can then perhaps  request that a witness             to call a witness with his documents, to subpoena .... (unclear) ... statement, wasn't what he referred to perhaps?
 BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:

13)   JUDGE KOLBE:

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:

14)   JUDGE KOLBE:

15)   35   me there?           I can't remember, I read a whole lot of stiff and
The ... I can't remember exactly the wording,can you assist
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The idea along those lines, Judge, can con...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Isn't that, yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... made one other approach would be to try at the time of cross-examination, this is not very feasible because ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... how do you put a question when were not sure of the position and be able to put it to ... (unclear) ... we should have documents before we put the question. I ... (unclear) ... in my view that kind of procedure.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm, mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Subpoena or whatever that those documents at that point in time when we are due to cross-examine.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: You know. Now at that point it would ... (unclear) ...delay the trial because we will call for the documents and we have to ... (unclear)  ... that causes a time-stop. We're trying to, as I understand it, to reach a point we can proceed to finality with this trial, put in... (unclear) ... certain ... (unclear) ... finish and klaar.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And it doesn't help us therefore if vie know that after the witness has testified the crimes injurici charges against my cl'ent      (unclear) by your witness in Nigeria that when we come to cross-examine about this the trial will have stop for us to aet that document, we have ... (unclear) documents, he'll have to come back to be cross-examined ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah. This is, I must say an intricate matter, I'm trying to assist both parties here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Before I make a ruling on this, can I just hear you, Defence Counsel, are you prepared just to write a letter to the prosecution to request whatever you alluded to just now, the request for what transpired in court so that she then perhaps can write you that letter back to say "sorry, we cannot assist" and then that enables you then to go to the Secretary for the Defence.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, ... (unclear)               We can do-that because now ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           If... can I just get something here from you ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Judge, ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Will, if you get such a letter ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And I think it would be best procedure-wise if the letter were addressed to Director, Military Prosecutions.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No problem.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, so that he can make that decision.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay.
JUDGE KOLBE:           And then get a letter then from defence counsel, so I then ... the court will then suggest that a letter be written by the defence counsel 10                to Director, Military Prosecutions ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ...with regards to the records that you've             (unclear) ...to the record of ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The report on the ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Report?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... the Inspector General's report ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... on ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           You will refer then to the ... you've got the copy of the previous pre-trial happenings, you've got it ... I think, if I remember correctly it was also ... was it on request and I think The Accused also paid for that transcription. Am I correct?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Not for the transcription but for a copy?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, the Director, Military Judicial Re.iews I think was referring to as a complete at the trial ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Oh ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... after a finding, sentence, et cetera teen The Accused is entitled to a copy of the record of proceedings if he so reques:s at the cost of ... I'm not quite sure what the cost is perhaps R1.00 (one 7.and) a page or something like that, but in this event there is going to be a ... is there still then going to be a request fbr the transcription of the pre-trial to ass st you in ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... drawing up your letter, or will you not be ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, no ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... it will be on tape, available on tape.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           But ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, ... (unclear) ... the letter from ... (unclear) ... in this directions of the court to get the tape. ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           So ... but will you need it on paper? Will you need the tape on paper ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, not necessarily.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... extra cost to the Army Law Enforcement Satellite Office?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, ... (unclear) ... if I can allude briefly is to say what we are talking about in court here, ... (unclear) ... to the tape I can only make ... even make further requests to do that. This things not possible for them to come and explain so on grounds why is the ... (unclear) ... assist us to get the transcript ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Ja\
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... proceedings.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Will that be possible to get a transcript of today's ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Judge, this is unfortunately not my decision to make .
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, I know ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... as you will know I ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... I'm jumping the gun here. Yeah.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Yeah. Prosecution has on many occasions in different trials made such an application when it's not necessarily granted.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         But I would suggest that Colonel Simelane make his application and let the relevant authorities look at it.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah,
PROSECUTOR.           As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. And then once you get the letter from the defence counsel, or not YOU the Director ... does he for your information the letter going to ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           for your information as the ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Whichever way defence counsel wishes me to handle it, it will be fine.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. And then we await a response of Director, Military ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Yes. There's just one concern that prosecution wishes to place on record now and that is that it seems we're heading for another series of postponements.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And if that were to be the case, I'm just putting it on record ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... that prosecution should most likely bring an application in terms of Section 342(a) of the Criminal Proceci!tre Act to court ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Uhuh?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... with regards to alit he postponements, basically that prosecution's case been prejudiced by all the postponements and that we would  seek relief from ... (unclear) ... As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay, but not now, at a later stage?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Not now.
JUDGE KOLBE:           At a lat... but you foresee that possibility?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         We will see how it goes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I just hope that it brings that ... (uno!ear) ... my learned friend bringing this application after ... (unclear) ... it is our request ... (unclear) ...

16)   JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay, then anything else from counsels, so then the ... you will write your letter. I really hope it will not be necessary for your client to go to the High Court for an application because by then ! don't think that time any ..one of us will still be alive and well, but ... (uncles-)               ... (unclear) perhaps ... As far as I can go, all of us can go but if there is .. (unclear) ... justice is a speedy trial that you really feel that you cannot go to trial without any documents then so be it, that is a decision fcr the defence counsel to make. And in front of me I've got this ... anything else then, or can I just then go into the formalities? Can we set a date then for 24 February?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           No problem from my ....(unclear) ...Okay, so I'm going to put the case down then. Now I'm not quite really sure, the p'osecution is sug.. is 35             not then for trial, it's not then for what? How long do I put ths case down for now on 24 ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Or to deal with any possible pre-trial procedures. In other words that we bring no witnesses to court, but possibly that we could deal with pre-trial procedures and perhaps even plea, as my learned colleague
JUDGE KOLBE: Okay, so you are ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... but not for witnesses ... (unclear) ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         But not for witnesses then just so that vie have more certainty of the direction in which we are going.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Obviously prosecution ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           So not for trial?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... is loath to do this ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah, I was really thought we could go then on trial, perhaps at least some of the prosecution witnesses ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... are available, but it ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Prosecution would love ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         ... to bring two witnesses on the trial date
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yes.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         And if my learned colleague sees his way clear to going on with the trial then definitely prosecution will bring two witnesses, but not the one that is in Africa because we have no certainty that we will indeed proceed.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. Can ... the two witnesses that you intend to call, if  its possible, the names of those witnesses?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Colonel Eduard Frans Drost and Colonel Lentsoe.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Kleyn and Lentsoe?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         No, Drost
JUDGE KOLBE:           Colonel Eduard Frans Drost and Lentsoe.             (unclear)             Yes, Defence Counsel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge, we ... it is ... (unclea-)             for defence counsel to say we can plead, .(unclear) . you can take a plea at a later stage ... (unclear) ... we cannot consent to commit ourselves to other issues not until we have a response from the Director, Military Prosecutions or our request ...(unclear) yes, because that will a dimension as to where we are going to ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... depending on his response.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But we  (unclear) ... we ... I'm     ... (unclear) ... indicate fairly that defence counsel wanted the plea stage to be completed.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay. Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I thought that might have ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... we have been happening today.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, things have been happening ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           But unfortunately ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Now, were ready, defence wants the pleas to be taken and then any other issues will be dealt with by the next court.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: After ... (unclear) ... pleas ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Okay.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         Sorry, Judge, if I understand correctly then on the 24th I will bring my two witnesses, we will schedule for how many days? How many days should I keep open?
JUDGE KOLBE:           Your views on that? I thought perhaps three days that the judae will be available I think for the rest of that week then, the judge that I have in mind.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Unless there is something else ..
DEFENCE.    Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           happening on that day.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I think for the rest of the week of the 23':
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yeah, we ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... of February.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: VVe've really got no control on that because ... (unclear)... we will be able to deal with other issues after pleas, pending on the response 35      to our ... (unclear) ... So we can't interfere with the prosecution, ... (unclear) ...this ... it's seen ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And especially if it is outside.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... as a it might be seen as a personal application ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... and not as a criminal ... (unclear)         so then I don't know.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes. Yeah.
JUDGE KOLBE:           I'm at a loss there as to the ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm, ja
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... the workings ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah. No, it gets complicated because
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... in that specific department.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... it is Secretary for Defence does not decide alone, he'll... (unclear) ... to the state they must sort of one mind because the ..... (unclear) ... this arrangement out of the course of work, it's the decision of the course of work, it's the ... (unclear) ... of party's interest that ... (unclear) ... be represented and that it gets legal ... are these documents relevant for its trial, then once all ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... that obligation ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE KOLBE:           But I think at this stage we cannot take the matter any further really today, excepting to postpone this matter for pleaCing
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: For pleading.
JUDGE KOLBE:           ... on 24 February. I will set the matte- down for trial, or request that it begin for trial, let's say for three days, four da:,s, as long as the senior judge is available. If we don't use all those three or fog.:- days then so be it, but then he will know, he will make his diary available. And then for the ... I'm going to urge then the defence counsel to write that letter of request to the Director, Military Prosecutions as soon as possible with reference then to today's tapes. I will re... on the tape I'm going to write today's date so that you can refer..... to the tape of today, it will only be one tape then dated 27 January..

17)   JUDGE KOLBE:           That's ... That's ... (unclear) ... If any ... if it becomes necessary then tu have this thing  convenient for her then to obtain the tapes from her and not from the judge in Bloemfontein. The case is then postponed until the 24th for ... until the end of that week of February 24, 2004 and I will, it's a Tuesday, Wednesday ... (unclear) ... and the Friday the 27th and then we will see what happens in themeantime. Thank you, Defence Counsel, Thank you, Madam Prosecutor.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank you, Judge.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms TANYA VAN SCHALKWYK:         As the court pleases.
JUDGE KOLBE:           Thank you, Assessors for your assistance ... (unclear) ... and to the other Colonels who were called up. Thank you. I think it is safe to  say that I don't expect that we will be needing your services, but make a note of

18)   the 24th if you can just be here, if anything should happen ... (unclear) be here. Thanks. Thank you, the tapes are switched off again, the time is now 11:20 ... (unclear) ...

End of tape-1

(Transcription continues on tape 2)

Jacob Zuma (Mr) and some unnamable character