PART-1: "human?" IT'S CALLED "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY", MR PRESIDENT!

"Siziwe" a.k.a "Sighs", the self-professed
Nelson  Mandela Cousin
who achieved generalcy and other ranking
through adultery/prostitution
with at least one Raymond Lentsoe in Year 2000.
Goodman Manyanya Phiri, according to Mr Jacob Zuma,
must for 11 years now therefore continue to suffer
for blowing the whistle against this relative to a Mandela
that Zuma calls "The Father of The Nation South Africa".
Her official name is
Winnie Ntombizodwa Zini-Bobelo

PART ONE (1)  OF TEN (10)

Dear Mr President Jacob Zuma, Your Excellency

Human rights cannot, as Lindiwe Sisulu's actions are suggesting with her continued unlawful acts against Phiri, mere paper human rights, but they are also rights for Goodman Manyanya Phiri.  If the administration of Your Excellency Zuma (like the pro-Eastern-Cape tribalistic regimes of Mandela and Mbeki) through Sisulu's roughshod actions, fail to treat me within my rights enshrined in the constitution regarding the kangaroo court she and her fellow Eastern-Cape tribalists (assisted by a few toadying white racists) initiated against me back in 2001 for doing what is right for my land (BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON CORRUPTION)....

...What hope do I have Mr President Zuma that your administration, of all the administrations post-apartheid, will finally repatriate and COMPENSATE my first wife and our children, still illegally banished (since 1994) by the self-same tribe of Lindiwe Sisulu with the particular hand of "Freedom Fighters" Monezi Gchilitshe and Benson Mandindi acting under the orders (implicit) of another Eastern-Caper, Clarennce Mlamli Makwetu?

ON THIS DAY, SOUTH AFRICA'S HUMAN RIGHTS DAY, WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD JOINS SOUTH AFRICANS IN CELEBRATING ONE OF THE MOST GLORIOUS CONSTITUTIONS ON EARTH, I HAVE CHOSEN MR PRESIDENT, TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN LINDIWE SISULU'S KANGAROO COURTS, A 10-YEAR-OLD PROCESS WHICH, FOR BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS AS TO HOW TO FURTHER VICIMIZE PHIRI FOR BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON HER FELLOW THEMBU-TRIBESWOMAN-GENERAL WINNIE NTOMBIZODWA BOBELO-ZINI, SHE HAS RESUMED AS OF LAST THURSDAY THE 17TH MARCH 2011.

THE TWO BIGGEST FLOPS AND UNDOABILITIES ABOUT THIS "TRIAL" ARE.

1.  SISULU'S SO-CALLED EVIDENCE AGAINST PHIRI WAS COLLECTED IN A MANNER THAT FLOUTS FAIR LEGAL PROCEDURES IN THAT SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WERE PUT IN AN A FELLOW-EASTERN-CAPE-BORN MAJOR GENERAL ENOCK MASHOALA'S BOARD OF INQUIRY YET PHIRI WAS NOT CALLED TO CROSS EXAMINE OR OPPOSE THE "WITNESSES" AND THEIR EXPECTORATIONS FOR PRO-SISULU EVIDENCE.  NOR HAS THAT MASHOALA REPORT TO DATE BEEN MADE TO PHIRI DESPITE SEVERAL HIGH-COURT APPEALS BY PHIRI....[(to the reader of this post, Blogger's elucidation on the Mashoala character, please check the yellow highlight to be found here)]....

2.  SISULU IS UNLAWFULLY REFUSING TO PAY COURT FEES FOR PHIRI JUST AS THEY WERE PAID FOR YOUR EXCELLENCY ZUMA IN YOUR "CORRUPTION" TRIAL.  WHERE IS THE EQUALITY ENSHRINED BY "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY" CONSTITUTION IF ZUMA BY VIRTUE OF MEMBERSHIP TO THE RULING PARTY CAN HAVE STATE PAYMENT OF HIS EXPENSES BUT PHIRI JUST BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER AND WITH NO POLITICAL PARTY TO BACK HIM?

3. LINDIWE SISULU KNOWS VERY WELL THAT SOUTH AFRICA'S CONSTITUTION AND REQUISITE LAWS MAKE IT UNLAWFUL FOR HER TO PROSECUTE PHIRI SEEING THAT I WAS PROSECUTED (AND THERE IS AMPLE PROOF OF MY BLOG AND COURT PAPERS ALL AROUND) BECAUSE OF DARING TO EXPOSE NELSON MANDELA'S COUSIN, BRIGADIER GENERAL BOBELO-ZINI WHO, AS A MAJOR WHEN I BLEW THE WHISTLE, HAD NO RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH THE BEDROOOM WITH AT LEAST ONE COLONEL RAYMOND LENTSOE) AND STILL HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH SISULU'S THEMBU TRIBALISM AND EASTERN-CAPE REGIONALISM) TO REMAIN A BRIGADIER GENERAL OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS AND SHOULD BE PROSECUTED  INSTEAD TOGETHER WITH HER BOYFRIEND LENTSOE... NOT PHIRI

1)      HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: Now, can you put any legal argument that [the Accused Goodman Manyanya Phiri] has a right to elect assessors, first and foremost, before we adjourn because then I would like all that relevant information to be given to me so that I can look at it myself and then obviously ask the prosecutor to prepare a proper argument about the legal content thereof, to hear the prosecutor's view as well before I can make any decision in that regard. Because if I understand you correct, it's simply that your argument is that your client has a right to elect assessors.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  According to what rule or Act, or...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (No reply).
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Please help me.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, the application, Judge, is based on conduct.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Conduct?             I'm not sure what you're referring to now.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's based on precedent.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  On precedent?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Yes? Please help me.

2)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: What Colonel Phiri is going to say is that application is going to be heard on his objections on Assessors. The first leg of that application would be it's the precedent of a nomination, selection made by an accused person for assessors.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:Yes? What case was that? 

3)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I think he has in mind the case of General Ntsibande
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: ... (unclear) ...yeah?       

4)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  Indeed, Judge.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: I believe, if I'm not mistaken. That there was an attempt to state on record by that, because I was the judge in that case, if I'm not mistaken, as well, an attempt from a counsel, different attorney than yourself, was to the effect that there was an attempt to say that you yourself as defence should be one of the assessors, and the court did not sustain that application. So, there was merely an attempt, which the court did not uphold finding, so I'm still waiting for the precedent, except that there was an inadequate attempt made for a precedent.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, we don't have that transcription.  It has been asked for that case but the point there is that it is not because the request would not have been made, the question was the second assessor there had requested, was not of the particular rank that was .. (unclear) ... It was not the choice made, that the choice could not have been made of the assessors was that the question was that one of the assessors we have chosen would not qualify for certain reasons. Now, what Colonel Phiri wants to say is therefore that he had nominated assessors who both qualify, and therefore that it is distinguishable from the Ntsibande case where in fact the second assessor was refused, not that because he was made by The Accused in that case, but simply because the view was taken that that assessor did not qualify for reason of rank. And to that extent he would therefore want to place this on record that this request was made and his request has not been met.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Yes, okay, I still fail to see that as a precedent, but as long as I can understand your legal application. Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, that is the..it's really to be questionable if of conduct discriminating one member 30 against the other.      Then the second leg of that argument, of that application
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  But, sorry, what is the essence of your 'before we step off the point; -Colonel " Simelane; we don't want to get subjective interpretation once again.             I  would like a reasonable explanation, objectively, that 1 can understand. What is your point? Do you put it to this court that your client has the right to nominate assessors?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I think what he wants to say,- Judge, as I've indicated that he wants to rely on that precedent where ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  A precedent that hasn't been formalised in court?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's a matter that he handed in court, there's a record that ... (unclear) ... of that case. It's
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  It was dealt with on an ad liminae point and it was dealt with and not sustained, so ... but besides that, so you want to tell me there's a precedent on an ad liminae point that was not sustained?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's what I've indicated, Judge, that my nominations ....there not...sustained because the instructions are that that matter regarding the choice could not have been made.        It was not sustained  because the choice was a choice of an unqualified candidate for certain reasons.   And he wants to say that in this particular case of his he did indeed choose two ...
 HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: A qualified one?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: two qualified candidates,             which, according to him, would therefore      would have been  accepted.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Don.-.. therefore I'm asking you, you're putting in front of this court the end result is that your  client, according to you, has the right to choose  assessors? Contrary to what the Military Disciplinary Supplementary Measures Act-MDSMA-states that it's an election process that the judge has to do on Certain  criteria, based on the criteria obviously in 20(9) as well?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (No reply).
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Have you read 20(9)?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I've read those provisions of that, yeah.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Did you read the words, "A presiding judge may on application by the  defence order" and then there are certain criteria, but if you read the whole Section 20 can you see anything that states that the judge has to appoint somebody, according to the election from The Accused? I would like to see that, please.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, the statute is silent.                It says there, "The judge would then appoint", and he wants to say that people so appointed would have been those people he had nominated.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  No.         it also states precisely that, if you read 21 and 22, it states that there are certain criteria according to which this nomination Must be made.

5)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes,        Judge,   he wants say those criteria, which are listed, there were met.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: Yes, but now he wants to also make the election for the judge, on behalf of the judge by indicating two persons that would be, according to him, the right persons.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, I think that may be the court would then give him an opportunity to put that, because if the court is going to refuse his application then it ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Sorry. Why should I give him an opportunity to explain the law for me, which is objective? Why should I let a person who is not qualified in explain his           subjective           interpretation of . the    law? Therefore I've got a counsel, a very qualified counsel to explain to me the law and try to convince me about his argument.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, what I see is that we don't go on because if you hang the applicant on the point and then. you  make a decision then we know that we have on  record his application. We have On record your decision and then we can go forward. Because if it's going to be an argument. between 'you 'and .1. then. ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  No, *I'm telling you that if you can't convince me on the law with case law or interpretation of Section 20, I can tell you without any doubt in mind that an application based what the effect would be that your client has the right to choose assessors, and that he's not happy with the two present assessors without- giving a reason, besides that he has chosen other assessors, will not be in line with the understanding of Section 20. And therefore I would like you to make out a legal argument, not what your client subjectively feels about an election process.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, it's not a question of subjectivity. We .. it's not a question of subjectivity.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Then you make out a legal objective argument, and I'll hear it at the next stage. Okay. What  is the other criteria (sic)you want to put before the court  because that was regarding to the two assessors, because we haven't dealt with the one assessor, which I still don't know which assessor you're going to indicate. You might have to place that on record as well that if the court sustains that we have an alternative assessor available for that date, and not have two alternative assessors available.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, the second leg of that argument, Judge, would have been that obviously if one of the assessors, if we can only have a maximum of two assessors,  if one of the assessors is one according to his choice, then the other one who is sitting with you today is not the one he has chosen. Now, he .
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Sir, please indicate on record, which one is it now so that we know which assessor to be at least available, or should we just put one assessor available and 30 then hear your argument on that day?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 No, it's not difficult really, judge putting that on record.         The assessor against whom an objection would be made is Colonel Tshabalala.                
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Okay.    And you'll give me objective criteria for that on the date when we get to that point, and obviously myself and the full Colonel then will have to sit in private, and we'll excuse Colonel Tshabalala at that stage.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  But at least we know where we're going now. Okay. But the first one, I'm still
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Still in the dark there?

6)      HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  ... still in the dark there, yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: You shouldn't be in the dark, Judge, because that statute says the ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  What is your objection? Formulate it in words. Let me see if I can understand you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The objection is that he will be treated differently, Section 9 of the constitution, he will be treated differently.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Why?
DEFENCE.:   He'll be treated differently because, as he understands it, the appointments, which the judge makes  when the statute says. "A judge shall appoint", his  understanding, and the precedent, which he has cited, is that when she so appoints ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Let's get legal terms correct.       It's not a precedent. I've told you that. It's a concern, it's an interest, make it out what you will, a precedent is a court case that has been finalised in your favour.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: He ... then we've got different ... I'm not citing a decided case.              We're saying it's a precedent  in that ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                in that a member. made, choice, Judge.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Of two assessors?          
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Of two assessors.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Okay.    Now tell me exactly the legal argument for why I should allow an accused to make a choice of two assessors. It's simple. Nothing complicated. Tell me the law. Show me in the statute.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The same statute, which said . Section where it says, "Shall appoint".
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: His case, the case of The Accused is that "the people so appointed" are the people so nominated, unless the person has not nominated then the judge would look around, but the part of the argument is that a member
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Where do you see that in the law? Direct me to a specific sentence.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: That says the judge shall appoint.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Twenty-one maybe?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, it should be ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Well, 20(1) deals with the appointment, so maybe you can start there.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah,     there is the sub-section.               Sub Section (1) that, "When military assessors have to be appointed in terms of this Act, the Director, Departmental judges or an officer referred to in Section 13(2) (a) appointed by him or her for that purpose, shall appoint." Now, this "shall appoint" is understood ... what The Accused is saying is that when he saw "appoints" in the event of a nomination, 1-1,=, appoints such a nomination. Where such a nomination has not been made, then that appointment is an appointment that comes solely from the Director, Departmental judges. Now he says when General Ntsibande had appointed his second choice was not met, not because he did not ... he could not have been appointed, he was not a choice properly made, but it was a choice of a party that could not be appointed for certain reasons. Now, what he wants to say, he (unclear) ... a point in his case should have applied to the people he had nominated, that the court ... that the director should then have was bound to appoint them.

7)      HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Bound to appoint them according to what?
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Yeah. It doesn't add the little proviso that "according to the choice of The Accused".
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It doesn't say according to any-choice.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE: Thank you.           You're overruled on that, on law.             I'm not even going to deal with things that are so blatantly incorrect in law.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Is this on record, because I wanted you
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  This is on record.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: All what we ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  We are the whole time on record.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: All we want, because we're going to take this on review, we want the court's decision.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  That's the decision.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, because we are coming for review.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  You have it.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay, fine. If that is the decision then fair enough.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Okay.    And then we can hear at the next meeting we can hear your application for the recusal of Lieutenant Colonel Tshabalala.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Okay.    At least we have progressed some time today. Do you have a date in mind ... have you do you need a short adjournment to liaise with your colleague on the other side, as far as a date is concerned?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay. I don't know whether we should take an adjournment? Can we discuss it here?
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Preferably, because maybe we have to obviously consider that those dates have to be applicable and suitable, not 'only 'to you and your client, but also to the prosecution and also to the assessors and the court itself, please:- So I'm going to switch off until you're ready to put this on record once again then we can proceed. Okay?

8)      PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          Judge, both ... (unclear)               let's first just discuss the date ...
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Sorry.    You're not ready for the date already?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          . before we go on. I have certain confirmation with the court.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  Okay.    Obviously I will have to liaise with my assessors as well, so I'm going to switch off until you've got a proper date, and make sure that it suits all 10 the parties, the client as well. Thank you.

(Recording machine was switched off)

HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  There was a date proposed as 28 November for this case to be further dealt with the regarding applications, pre-trial applications be now, it might that by that date, the state is in a position to, prior to that date, give all the necessary requested documents to the defence, and only one application might be on the court roll for that day. However, the court is going on the presumption that the 28th is scheduled for two applications to be made by the defence, and depending on the outcome of t  hose applications, obviously even the trial that has to commence depending on what the documentation availability was or not. Now, it suits both assessors as well, and the court will ask all parties to be Present on 28 November. It might be feasible, Madam Prosecutor, and I don't want pre-empt this case that we arrange for another judge in this matter, solely on the basis that I'm either out of the defence force at the .end of. November or at the latest at the end of December.       So it would be hard to  imagine that this trial would be completed on one*day and for practical purposes that another senior departmental judge  should be appointed to take over the case regarding the two  remaining applications. This case is then postponed to 28 November 2002.      Colonel, is there any problem from your side not to be present on that day, according to your diary or anything that you know of?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge, this case is a priority. I will  set aside any exigencies that might have been.   I will definitely be available, God willing, Judge. HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:     Okay. It seems to be, in all probability that I won't be the judge. It might have been an interesting case.              For what it's worth I don't know what the charges are exactly, but another judge, in all 10 probability, will sustain the further applications. You  understand that?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yes, Judge.
HENDRIK JOHANNES LÜÜS,JUDGE:  And I wish you well in this case. I'm not going to be further partaking in all probability in this case, so be back in court on 28 November and then we can hear further argument by Colonel Simelane. Thank you.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          As it pleases the court.

(Case is postponed until 28 November 2002)

(End of tape 5)

(Transcription commences on tape 6)

((Court re-opens))

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:        This is tape 6 in the case of 98007693PE Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Phiri, Defence Intelligence.       This  court resumes on 28 November 2002 at 10:30 in Thaba-Tshwane City Hall, Court "A". In front of me I have an amended, or a new notice of enrolment appointing that is 70688882BV Colonel Pieter  ... (unclear) ... Venter, South African Army as the senior departmental judge in  this case.. The Accused is present in court.  The reason why I am sitting here as the  presiding officer today is because of the fact that Colonel Lüüs is leaving the service' at the end of December. He has been boarded and is going on pension on medical grounds. Colonel Phiri, for the records state your force number, rank, full names and surname please.

9)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Force Number is 98007693PE, Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri. That's it, Judge.

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you. I have already, at .the outset introduced myself and the assessors of this curt. We now proceed to the procedure in terms of Rules 35 and 36, objections and the recusal. You are informed that you may object to being tried by the presiding judge, that is myself and/or the assessors on the grounds that either one of them is related to yourself or a complainant by affinity or consanguinity, that is kinship in the first or second degree.

10)   (b) That anyone of us has such knowledge concerning the facts of the case that our decision is likely to be prejudiced thereby.

11)   (c) That anyone bears towards you such an animosity as is likely to prejudice his or her decision.

12)   (d) Has a personal interest in the proceedings.

13)   And you can object to an assessor on the ground that he has a personal interest in the proceedings. ?() (b) There are reasonable grounds for believing that there is

14)   (1) likely to be a conflict of interest as a result of the assessor's participation in the proceedings, or

15)   (2) a likelihood of bias on the part of the assessor. Would you like to speak for The Accused, Colonel Simelane, any  objections in this regard?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Any object...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Objections towards        regard to myself or any of the assessors?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, my .instructions are that The Accused has an objection regarding one of the assessors. The assessor on the judge’s left.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.    Okay.    How do you intend to proceed with your objection?       Are you going to make  statement first, or ... please, if you like.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, before addressing the...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Just state what the basis for the objection is.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        I would like The Accused to give evidence as to the basis of his objection to the ...
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               You would prefer that to be done first?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I would prefer that to be done first then I can address the court on ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    Thank you.          Right, Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri, your defence counsel has indicated to me 10 that you are giving evidence under oath.

APPLICATION REGARDING RECUSAL OF ASSESSOR

WITNESS NUMBER 1.:  : LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI (Hereinafter referred to as "ACCUSED") GIVES 15 EVIDENCE UNDER OATH

16)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Major    Boshoff, you wanted to say so something?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          Judge, the prosecution would just like to raise the concerns in terms of Rule 36(3) where it is determined that, "if any objection has been made against a said assessor the assessor will withdraw while the objection is heard."

17)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you for reminding me of that. Major, Colonel, you'll have to withdraw and go out,  please. Thank you. The witness has been sworn in. The Assessor against whom the application has been made, that is Lieutenant Colonel Tshabalala has left the courtroom. Please carry on, Counsel for the Defence. You can lead your witness.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. As the court pleases.

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF:

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Colonel Phiri, will you kindly tell this court, in your own words, the grounds upon which you object to Colonel Tshabalala sitting as a member of this court,                 the capacity of military assessor.
 GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI: As it pleases the court. The grounds on which I would rather have Tshabalala not as part assessors are as follows. He, long before the finalisation of the issue of assessors between myself and the prosecution counsel who was to phone me later on, Tshabalala had already informed me that he was going to be an assessor in my case much to my surprise and discomfort, as I've just said the matter had not yet been finalised between me and the court who the assessors were. The second reason which ... or ground which compounds the first is based on my --  for lack of a better word, the ascertain that my ... charges I'm facing today are a reprisal borne of former force allegiances.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, I didn't hear.
 GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI: I’m just They are like a reprisal looking for another word for "reprisal" here, based on former force allegiances. If the Judge wants me to go into detail?
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Oh, based on former force allegiances?
 GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:        Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.

GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:  And I feel that Colonel Tshabalala as somebody who, to my knowledge, is not from the same former force as myself it' will have a bias. I don't know if the  judge would like me to go into detail. I'm prepared, but I think that should be sufficient that it was a reprisal, the charges are a reprisal because I was speaking out against corruption involving certain persons or officers of the former force or two, and I was...(unclear)...immediately after writing a 30 grievance, I was charged.             So I do not see. Tshabalala  therefore having first, foreknowledge that he will be an assessor in my case, even before I know the identity of assessors. And secondly coming from one of the persons who were troublemakers, who caused my speaking out against for me to be charged that he can be a ... (unclear) Subsequently, after his first appearance, previous appearance here when I first raised to my defence counsel, that will be the third ground, Judge, my fears About Tshabalala were confirmed. First Tshabalala went about defence intelligence building gossiping about issues of the court.     He said, "Colonel Phiri does as not want me Tshabalala to be an assessor because Colonel Phiri's worried because I'm from this former force and Phiri is from that former force", which was to me, Judge, very  insulting to hear. And then he was subsequently also in  front of me to talk about another impending case which  involved a full Colonel who had charged a Lieutenant  Colonel and the two gentlemen who had charged each other  with belonged to two former forces, and unfortunately for  Tshabalala the person who was charged came from the same former force  no way that  former force  came from a  And he went  as he, and he wants to tell me that there was he as Tshabalala and his comrades from that were going do allow the particular Colonel who different former force to ...(unclear)... on further to say that he was Then therefore going to make sure, and they have got a system working in  the SANDF whereby they will put assessors to the favour of  The Accused member so that he be found free. And then he  went on to tell me that they were in the process of coaching The Accused member on how to lay down the charges, and to me ...

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, I didn't hear that:                Can you repeat your last sentence.?
 GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:        And they were certainly in the process of coaching, or showing methods to the  Accused, or the person who was going to be The Accused by that particular Colonel  from a different former force on how to lay down the  charges.           Basically to allow the troublemaker, or the  person accused by the full Colonel to walk free, and that to me was really an insult to the justice system of the SANDF ... and I was convinced I will not have Tshabalala as an assessor. And I want to put, if the Judge will allow me, to put a last point, which I think will be very important also. On a personal basis I have no problem with Tshabalala. We are on talking terms, we are very buddy,  buddy, but in terms of principle I think we've got two different         (unclear) ... outlooks and it is an (unclear) ... that an assessor should be a person who sees is why I went into detail, looking for person  the world more or less the same way as The Accused, That  understands my background, and identified certain (unclear) ... but I think we'll go to that may be later That would rest my case on Colonel Tshabalala, Judge. Thank you.

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Is there anything else you wanted your witness to say?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.         I want him to clarify the question that Tshabalala, even before it was formalised in terms of formally being advised who the departmental judges were going to be in this case, that he told you beforehand that he was already a military assessor in your case, you felt that he had a personal interest in your case, and that he was going to be biased?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I said that, as I said earlier on in my statement that he was an instrument, and I still feel he is an instrument of certain forces who want to see me found guilty because that is why I was charged, and so that I can shut my mouth basically, and he's here to ensure that..
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: That is the evidence, Judge;        As the  court-pleases.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Cross-examination by prosecution counsel?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:           Judge, no cross-questions. Thank you.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                No cross-examination? Defence Counsel, are there any further witnesses in support of the application?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: No further witnesses, Judge. Prosecution Counsel, are you calling any witnesses in rebuttal?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          None. As it pleases the court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Also not calling the particular assessor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          No.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And the court deems it wise not to call the particular assessor.   Okay. And the reason for that being that the particular assessor has indicated to this court, beforehand, without going into any detail that he would rather withdraw of his own accord. That is what he told this court in the presence of prosecution and defence counsel, and on that basis we'll deal with the matter. Okay? Although normally it would be his right to be informed of what has been said, but. this court deems it not wise to go deeper into this matter. This curt has enough reason to deem it better that this assessor, Lieutenant Colonel Tshabalala that his request should be granted, that he should be excused from this court. The court has a few remarks to make, most important being that this court knows of no reason why a particular assessor should be from the same, in this case, as it was mentioned by The Accused, the same former military force. In that way one cannot get impartiality in judging the case. And, to the court's mind, assessors should be totally unbiased, with no previous allegiances to anybody. And another factor is that this co=t knows of no rule that says that the assessors in a case should be of the. same. background, and also ethnic group as an accused.. The rule says, yes, there should be knowledge of certain background matters;-and. the court can't think of examples where certain beliefs of persons of a certain ethnic group would come into play; or be a factor to be considered, but normally assessors help the court in deciding on certain technical issues, for instance if a store-man is being charged on a charge of having deficiencies in stores, it would help the court to assessors who are versed in the procedures that ::: applicable in stores. But this is then the decision of this 5 court, and you agree with me that the assessor stand down, as he has requested in your presence, Colonel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  Yes, .. (unclear) ...

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay. That is then the decision of this court.       This court will proceed at a date to be arranged shortly after this and we'll have a new assessor on my left-hand who would not necessarily have to be a member of the same former military force as The Accused, and does not even, in the court's humble opinion, have to be of the same ethnic group as The Accused. That is then the decision of this court. Right.    By mutual agreement, and does you, Colonel? ... (unclear) .. The date as well? ... (unclear) .. This case is then remanded  until 21 January 2003 in this same court. Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri you will be here, and your witnesses as well, and the prosecution will have her witnesses on standby and ready, so that we can proceed on that date. If defence has any further possible objections it would be appreciated if the defence could give this court notice at this stage. Are there any further applications?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Er .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you wish to give notice of any further applications?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay.   
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Or will  you deal with that as the matter goes on?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. I would like to deal with ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Of course we'll first have to get the seat to my left-hand ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: To the ... yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                side filled ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Get it filled properly.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                so that we can be constituted as a proper court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah.     So all this court can, at this stage, really do is do the remand.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you for helping me there.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. (unclear) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So you heard that, Colonel?       We'll be here on 21 January 2003 ... (unclear)
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you. You may withdraw.
(Case is remanded until 23 January 2003) may maybe... (unclear)     

((Court re-opens))

COURT CASE OF LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI  COMMENCES ON 23 January 2003

18)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The case of Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Phiri resumes on Tuesday 21 January 2003. The case was postponed until today for the authorities to appoint another assessor in the place of Lieutenant Colonel Tshabalala who recused himself from the case. A suitable assessor has not yet been found, or appointed, and the case accordingly is remanded or postponed again for this to happen. The case. is, by mutual consent of prosecution and defence, remanded until Friday-31 January-2003. On that date the court will deal with any  preliminary investigations... objections, rather and at this stage  the name of Colonel Victor Sibeko, a part-time force senior departmental judge has been put forward as a possible assessor, and if he is appointed eventually a new notice of enrolment and assessor's certificate will be made out. And at the same time the defence is given notice of the intention to appoint Colonel Sibeko so that they can . . so that they know who the person would be and can make a decision of whether he will be acceptable to their defence. Colonel, you can stand back. You've heard this case ...(unclear)... first of all please sign this pre-trial procedure certificate.
(Case is remanded until 31 January 2003)

20030131

((Court re-opens))

19)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The case of Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Phiri resumes on 31 January 2003 at ± 09:35  at this stage we are still busy with preliminary objections and possible  recusals of anybody. I read again as from paragraph 12 of  the record of proceedings, the presiding judge informs the  accused that he may object to be tried by the presiding  judge and/or the assessors on the grounds that he or they  are

(a) related to The Accused or the complainant by  affinity or consanguinity as kinship in the first or second  degree

(b) has or have such knowledge concerning The facts  of the case that his, or their decision is or are likely  to be prejudiced thereby

(c) Bears, or bear The Accused such animosity as is likely to prejudice his or their decision, (d) has a personal interest in the proceedings.

And The Accused can object to an assessor on the ground that

(a) he or she has a personal interest in  the proceedings

(b). there are .reasonable grounds for  believing that there is

(1) likely to be a conflict of interest as a result of the assessor's participation in the .......proceedings

(2) a likelihood of bias on the part of any assessor." What does the defence intend to do?   
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, the defence does not intend  has no intention to object on any ..
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                To the judge or any assessor?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... to the judge or any assessor.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you, Sir.  Just to confirm, Colonel Lorraine Mametsi Mabusela have you previously been sworn in or not? yet? But just to make sure that we have it doubly sure, 5 we'll swear you in again. Okay? Today.

(Assessors are sworn in)

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                For the record, and this has also been recorded at paragraph 14 of the record of proceedings, both assessors have been sworn in.  Defence Counsel, did you have enough time to prepare, and did you receive the documents you need in time?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, Judge, we still have outstanding matters. The court is aware.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What kind of documents, Sir?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The        documents         which Colonel   Phiri requires for his trial.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Who did you request the documents     from, and which documents are those?  Sorry, can you just turn the microphone towards your mouth there, please?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Oh Yes, Judge,   we've made       a              list documents. To assist the court, a formal request on the advice of this court to defence counsel and to Colonel Phiri was initially that these documents, which were considered as documents required for the trial ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you need those documents to be able to
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: To prepare for this ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                . prepare and cross-examine, etcetera?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. for his case.    Yes, and to prepare  for his case and be able to cross-examine him, and do necessary.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.    Apparently we  and we can ask the prosecutor here, do you have any witnesses lined 1.-IP today, Prosecutor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          None. As it pleases the court, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Is there any problem by defence that we commence with reading the charge sheet today?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, we ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And asking The Accused to plea?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, the ... it will be difficult for The Accused to plead when he will not be having those documents because it will impact on the plea and his case.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The essence of the case.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Can I ask you whether, and I would like
the prosecutor to answer me there, was there a preliminary investigation in this case?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          Colonel,               there     was        a              preliminary investigation and all the witnesses testifying with regards to the charge in front of the court, or in front of The Accused, and the charges to set down by The Accused has been included in the preliminary investigation; end therefore handed over.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    So there was a preliminary investigation?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          That's correct.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Was the defence given a copy of this preliminary investigation?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          That's correct. Yeah.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                At what stage?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          Colonel, it's so far back now. It was in the ... preliminary investigation was completed in March 2001 and I believe April/May it was handed over to the defence counsel.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You're talking about 2001?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          2001: That's 'correct, Colonel.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                -Defence Counsel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: -Yes,      er
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Is that so?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I'm not aware of that.    I may not have  been involved in the .. maybe at the time. I don't know.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: Right. Can I ask you this, since I have taken over as the judge in this case
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: you have            had        the         preliminary investigation?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                When did you receive that?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (No reply).
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The copy of the Preliminary Investigation?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (No reply).
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you have it here today?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: You...Are we talking about the same thing? know what a PI is, a preliminary investigation?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, a record of ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, an investigation that was done. Evidence that was taken down etcetera. Do you have that?

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, I have statements of certain witnesses, which are intended to be used.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But is there anything stopping us from proceeding to the reading of the charge sheet and plea today?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I'm not sure whether that's a tactical issue, but the fact of the matter is we have pending applications before this court, preliminary applications.

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay. What are they?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And they are on record, Judge.  The one...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Were they lodged before I took over as senior judge in this case?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. They were lodged before the present Are they still relevant for this case? Ye...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Seeing that we have reached the stage
where the bench is to the satisfaction of ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... The Accused?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: They are relevant, not to the same extent. One objection is on a question of principle and which Colonel Phiri feels he has to put on record relating to the assessors and the selection thereof. (2) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, but is that an issue that should affect this trial? Isn't that a matter, on the matter or principle you are unhappy about the way certain things might have gone, that you take it up with the authorities in the legal section?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We ... no, the important thing in that regard is to have it on record because it impacts on the ultimate trial how things went to on.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you think that your client will not get a fair trial from the three of us sitting here?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not me ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                As it is?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not me.  I have instructions, Judge. It's nothing to do with my feelings. How or what I think about the court.  My instructions are that (1) Colonel  Phiri puts his case on the question of assessors and he wants to give evidence in this regard. And...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, but that has been dealt with.. That has fallen by the wayside now because of the fact that we are a bench that you have no problem with at this stage.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                Ye...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And when I say "you" I mean the defence.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                Colonel Phiri
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes. Would you like' to consult with your client?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay, let me consult with him, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Shall we stand down for five minutes, or  what?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, my instructions are that at this moment we don't have to stand down, but he persists with his instructions that he wants this matter to be placed on record.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What? What are you placing on record?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: What is to be placed on record, as understand it, short of giving evidence from the bar, Judge, because he's going to give his evidence himself, but
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               No,         the         point     is             I               don't     really understand what this is all about, and how at this stage one can have any problems with things that happened in the past, which I, and the members here, don't even know about it. I, and the assessors. The assessors and myself. So  how can this affect the legality and the fairness of this trial that has to come?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It impacts in the sense that, as understand my instructions, is that he is questioning the  process that brought about the existence of these assessors  presently before the court. He has no objections against any one of them, but the process that brought about these assessors. It may become clear in his evidence. And the second point on the same issue is it's a previous case of one General Ntsibande and he wants to illustrate there that also he is treated differently from the practice that was applied then, to the extent that this would be brought to the attention of the court. It would form part of the record and he may revert to it at whatever stage. We don't know when and where this case will-end-
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right. Can I say something?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank YOU, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                We already have the situation that there are no problems from the—defence's--side with the two colleagues sitting next to  me, on either side of myself. So what can really be the problem? And especially if one .. have you seen the assessors' certificate?                It was signed by Colonel Colby, Senior Departmental judge. It was, believe, assented to, okayed by Brigadier General Myburgh who's the Director of Departmental judges. So these assessors have been appointed in terms of the rules and the Act. There was no irregularity in the appointment of these assessors. I'm satisfied as far as they tell me that they would be suitable and proper assessors to assist myself in this case, to see to it that justice is done in this matter.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, I would think it would be useful if I allow Colonel Phiri to give -testimony and explain himself and the court can get to know what are the issues really.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Is there any problem with, let's say any personnel at Army Law Enforcement Satellite Office, Thaba Tshwane, any particular person who, let's say did the initial phoning of people, etcetera?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Ye...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Apparently the person had ...people had problems in getting a suitable assessor? They have a list, but people are not available, etcetera?

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, those issues will be addressed in...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But the point is ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... all that falls by the wayside because of the fact that defence has said, "No problems with the assessors.'.'
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So that is not an issue anymore, Colonel.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: and One can't go back to this situation, Director, Departmental judges  is that this court, myself, don't have the power to...(unclear)...***********************************************AND THIS SEEMS TO BE A BREAK IN THESE RECORDS OR THE ABSENCE OF CERTAIN PAGES TO MAINTAIN THE THREAD OF ARGUMENTS******************************

20)   ****************...(unclear)...the ruling of this. court is the prosecutor will read the charge sheet .......Colonel Phiri, stand there where you stood
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               Colonel                Simelane,           if             you        are         not satisfied with this court's ruling that the charge sheet should be read now you can take this decision of this court on appeal to the High Court at the cost of your client, but at this stage as far as this court can see there can be no preliminary objections, and the prosecutor is instructed to read the charge sheet. Your client is instructed to go to his place there, in the dock, and he'll listen to the charge sheet.

(Recording machine was switched off)

21)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  As the court resumes its proceedings 11:00.

22)   During the break the court consulted in chambers behind us with the prosecution and defence counsel, and later on also with the Director, Departmental judges to obtain advice as to how this application that the defence wants to lodge, should properly be dealt with. At this stage the court defers its ruling regarding the plea, regarding the obligation for the charge sheet to be read, and The Accused to plead. The court will now afford the defence the  opportunity to lodge the application formally, and if need be that they support this application by calling apparently  The Accused, Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri to give evidence under oath. But the court must stress that at this stage  we should confine ourselves to what is strictly relevant to  the case, and what is reasonable and necessary to enable the defence to properly conduct their case so as to, for instance, cross-examine properly in the light of any former statements made by witnesses who will probably be called by prosecution counsel. Defence Counsel, you may now bring your application..
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases.  Judge, we ...will call upon Colonel Phiri to take the witness stanch and to give evidence before this court as to the documents he would like to be furnished with for the purpose of enabling- him to prepare for the trial and to conduct          and that  the defence will conduct it accordingly.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Before you do so, you of course realise that your witness, your client will be subject to cross-examination?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Your client must also be informed, and this what I'm doing now.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                That anything he says or is going to say in evidence might be used in this trial against him, if 10 what he says is detrimental to what he might say to this court at this stage. You understand that?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I understand, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Your client understands that?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                He nods his head, yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So I don't know... Do you...can you give the court an idea how long his evidence would be perhaps? Is it ...how long will he need for that, to hear his  evidence?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: My instructions are that he'll be about an hour.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                An hour?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah, that's fair enough.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Does prosecution counsel want to say anything at this stage?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:.        Not ,at this stage, Colonel..
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes.        Do you want to call your witness
first, or do you wish to may be make 'an 'opening statement, or are you going to address the court after he has given  his evidence?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        I intend to call him to enumerate the particular documents he wants, and ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And saying why he wants them?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, and ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And how they are relevant
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Relevant to ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                to the conduct of his case?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Of his case. I will, thereafter, when he has completed his evidence and having been cross-examined, if that happens, and any evidence the prosecution might like to bring, but at the end I will make an address, legal arguments on what the evidence would in fact be given.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Counsel, are you also ... apparently when we spoke at the back ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... here, it transpired that the defence had made an application for those documents to be submitted  to the defence. Can you, at this stage tell the court what happened?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, I can assist the court in that regard.               Just to give you a brief history as to these documents, the position is that when I had received instructions about these documents, which pertained to the charges he's facing, as the court will be aware as the time goes on because of the trial that the incident upon which he's tried relates to him having attended the junior staff course at the army college where, as a result of certain disputes amongst students and the leaders of that college, the Inspector General of the army was invited to come and conduct an investigation and produce a report. My instructions are that when that had been done and/or when the Inspector General was  conducting his investigation, he interviewed a number of  students at the college. And also interviewed the officers in charge of that :college, ' and' the report was finalised and handed to the Chief-of the Army, but Colonel Phiri was riot  called to that interview whereas he had been part of the  interactions that had been investigated, and that therefore  he was aggrieved by that, that he had been excluded. And then he then addressed a redress of wrongs in that regard.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Can I just stop you there?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                How does that have a bearing on this case here, the charges against The Accused?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, it has a bearing in the sense that it was filing that redress of wrongs that he was charged, according to my instructions.             And that all these charges he's facing arise from that redress of wrongs.              And also the relevance of the report is that the report would have evidence of all those witnesses that were interviewed and who the prosecution counsel will utilise to this court as witnesses.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right. But before she can call any such witnesses, of course copies of their statements would have to-be given to the defence, isn't that so?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. We will be dealing ..
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Or ... and let me get this on record.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you have the preliminary investigation that was apparently done?   
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .Yes, I have a report that the Preliminary Investigation was conducted.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm. But do you have ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Although ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... the documents, the statements in the PI?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, those. are the statements of the witnesses
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                " Yes..
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... that have been furnished to me.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: -             I see.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But are they just simple statements, or do they include what was apparently said in the Board of Enquiry?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We don't know what was said at the Board
of Enquiry because we also need that record of proceedings. We don't know what was said before the Inspector General because we also need that report.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Those are part of the documents, which we have ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... Colonel Phiri will explain before the court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Counsel,              and        then      was        a application made for the documents that the defence needs? Yes, these documents, initially

23)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  On his own initiative Colonel Phiri addressed a letter to  General Gilbert Lebeko Ramano explaining these documents, listing them and  why he wants them where he did not get assistance. We came to the court her- and explained before the previous court that ..
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, but please enlighten me because don't know what it was all about.

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, indeed, Judge.  We explained to the previous court that we are not getting assistance from General Raman°. The documents are not coming, and the court advised us, Colonel... (unclear) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The previous judge?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The judge, the. sitting judge
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: said to Colonel "Phiri; "Okay, now that the Chief of the Army hasn't furnished you with those records go and apply for them in terms of the Information Act. And then Colonel Phiri came to me and said, "Please. Assist me, Colonel Simelane, to have that application We completed a number of forms, after processed."  consulting with the officers involved at the information centre to compile a proper request. That request (1) was denied, Judge. We appealed in terms of the relevant Act. The appeal was also declined on the basis that he has now been charged. These documents must be furnished to Colonel Phiri through the court process. That response from Doctor (Wayne??) Hendricks who wrote that letter was furnished to the court and to my learned friend, and ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                To the court and your learned friend?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. And al...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Well, that means the previous court?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The previous court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Colonel Lüüs? Who was
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Colonel Luus.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... the presiding judge? the letter from Doctor Hendricks, copies were ...(unclear)...

24)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. The ... (unclear) ... available, and that the direction is that Colonel Phiri is furnished the documents through that process, the court process.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry.    Can we just get to           of the prosecutor at this stage?

25)   PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF: Colonel, documents...(unclear)... defence regarding the request file in terms            of the Information Act. To be quite honest and ... (unclear) the decision regarding that exact requisition and the order made by the Colonel, the prosecution is not clear about that a specific order was made by the court that these documents
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You're talking about Colonel Lüüs?
....PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:    That's correct, by that specific judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Who..what order would have been made by him?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms KAREN BOSHOFF:          In terms...or ...that the documents must be available to the defence.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Defence Counsel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge, we wouldn't be making this application formally. The point is that when those results  from ... regarding the Information Act were presented to  the court, and it was clear that Colonel Phiri's directed to be assisted by the prosecution, the order was made, not in a formal sitting but he was still on the stage, but we were not on the ... (unclear) ... We had adjourned when Colonel Luus said, "Okay, Major, please when you come back next time these people must have been furnished with those documents." It was not like an order. It was ... I looked at it that the previous court is avoiding a situation where we've got to sit and make a formal application like we want to do, just to advise ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: her to say, "Okay, give them the documents", but it never happened.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes. Can I come in here and say that
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... I've never seen such documents. Such documents, if they existed, were never handed over to myself by Colonel Lüüs when I took over as the senior judge in this case.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So I've never seen any such documents.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay.    There is ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So I don't even know what it's all about.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But to put you in the picture .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm?

26)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The advice that I obtained from the Director, Departmental judges  Brigadier General Annemarie Myburgh (Ms) is that this court, myself, don't have the power to make an order, let's say, today, any order saying," "This list ..." . what's that Doctor?- Doctor Hendricks?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Doctor Hendricks, yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I can't make an order forcing him to hand over certain documents to you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, we ... Doctor Hen...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you agree with that?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I agree with that ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I have no power to make any such order.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No.         He doesn't have the documents either.                He was ... he's just an officer that was dealing  with ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... the application. Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:... or any person who might possession of            such documents,             let's        say, Director, Intelligence or whoever he is, or Director, Personnel of the army.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I have no power, and that is :he legal position as I understand it. I have no power to make any  such an order.     Such an order, or this would have to be dealt with outside, through the channels provided for by the Information Act. This court has no such .cower to force any other officer, or office to hand over those documents. That is the advice that I have obtained.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Unfortunately we don't agree because if he is like denying the ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You know, I wanted to bring you into the picture because
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                this is the advice that I got, and in. the light of that you might want to reconsider your intention to call The Accused.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (No reply).
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:..             And to pursue the avenues that you have adopted.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Like which avenues?
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                In other words, the administrative avenue provided for in terms of the Information Act, and that the proper forum to deal with such an order is not. this court of a departmental judge but, the High Court it, would seem to me. But if you like we could stand down for this issue to be considered further to obtain a legal opinion, proper advice.
DEFENCE      Yes, it may be necessary, we may need to consult in your counsel on those issues whether the 10 application  if the case cannot be done today
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So that one is not under the wrong impression, and that in the end money and time is wasted by bringing an application to the High Court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we need
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The point is we want to get on with this trial in the interest of justice.     A fair trial in the  interest of everybody, including your client.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Because that is the right of every accused that he has his day in court and teat his case is dealt with as soon as possible. I don't have to remind you of that, or tell you that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: You...
Yes.                I must say I fully agree with... and we must have all the papers to prepare for his defence. 25    
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But he must have all the papers to ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: All the papers for his ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So do you still wish to continue with calling your client, for what it's worth?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes —I-wish to ...
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               I have to bring you, or tell 'you at this stage ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. No we
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                . that according to his legal advice that I have obtained. As the senior departmental judge in this 35 court I have no power to make an order compelling somebody else to ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:. hand over any such documents yourself.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Well, my. gut reaction, really, Judge, would be that let it be your judgement. Hear him and come to a verdict. When you pass your judgement to make your orders and if you
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay. I think that's the advisable thing to do.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. It will close the matter.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                To hear your witness
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                and you argue your case and you bring  your application.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And at that stage the court, when it has  all the information at its disposal can then .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Make up its mind.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                make up its mind, obtain further advice
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                as you said the senior counsel's  opinion.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And        come     to a proper, hopefully, decision.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases. Can you call Colonel Phiri.

27)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: Colonel Phiri, you have been called by your counsel.