PART-4: "human?" IT'S CALLED "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY", MR PRESIDENT!

"Siziwe" a.k.a "Sighs", the self-professed
Nelson Mandela Cousin
who achieved generalcy and other ranking
through adultery/prostitution
with at least one Raymond Lentsoe in Year 2000.
Goodman Manyanya Phiri, according to Mr Jacob Zuma,
must for 11 years now therefore continue to suffer
for blowing the whistle against this relative to a Mandela
that Zuma calls "The Father of The Nation South Africa".
Her official name is
Winnie Ntombizodwa Zini-Bobelo

PART FOUR (4)  OF TEN (10)

Dear Mr President Jacob Zuma, Your Excellency

Human rights cannot, as Lindiwe Sisulu's actions are suggesting with her continued unlawful acts against Phiri, mere paper human rights, but they are also rights for Goodman Manyanya Phiri.  If the administration of Your Excellency Zuma (like the pro-Eastern-Cape tribalistic regimes of  Mandela and Mbeki) through Sisulu's roughshod actions, fail to treat me within my rights enshrined in the constitution regarding the kangaroo court she and her fellow Eastern-Cape tribalists (assisted by a few toadying white racists) initiated against me back in 2001 for doing what is right for my land (BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON CORRUPTION)....

...What hope do I have Mr President Zuma that your administration, of all the administrations post-apartheid, will finally repatriate and COMPENSATE my first wife and our children, still illegally banished (since 1994) by the self-same tribe of Lindiwe Sisulu with the particular hand of "Freedom Fighters" Monezi Gchilitshe and Benson Mandindi acting under the orders (implicit) of another Eastern-Caper, Clarennce Mlamli Makwetu?

ON THIS DAY, SOUTH AFRICA'S HUMAN RIGHTS DAY, WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD JOINS SOUTH AFRICANS IN CELEBRATING ONE OF THE MOST GLORIOUS CONSTITUTIONS ON EARTH, I HAVE CHOSEN MR PRESIDENT, TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN LINDIWE SISULU'S KANGAROO COURTS, A 10-YEAR-OLD PROCESS WHICH, FOR BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS AS TO HOW TO FURTHER VICIMIZE PHIRI FOR BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON HER FELLOW THEMBU-TRIBESWOMAN-GENERAL WINNIE NTOMBIZODWA BOBELO-ZINI, SHE HAS RESUMED AS OF LAST THURSDAY THE 17TH MARCH 2011.

THE TWO BIGGEST FLOPS AND UNDOABILITIES ABOUT THIS "TRIAL" ARE.

1.  SISULU'S SO-CALLED EVIDENCE AGAINST PHIRI WAS COLLECTED IN A MANNER THAT FLOUTS FAIR LEGAL PROCEDURES IN THAT SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WERE PUT IN AN A FELLOW-EASTERN-CAPE-BORN MAJOR GENERAL ENOCK MASHOALA'S BOARD OF INQUIRY YET PHIRI WAS NOT CALLED TO CROSS EXAMINE OR OPPOSE THE "WITNESSES" AND THEIR EXPECTORATIONS FOR PRO-SISULU EVIDENCE.  NOR HAS THAT MASHOALA REPORT TO DATE BEEN MADE TO PHIRI DESPITE SEVERAL HIGH-COURT APPEALS BY PHIRI....[(to the reader of this post, Blogger's elucidation on the Mashoala character, please check the yellow highlight to be found here)]....

2.  SISULU IS UNLAWFULLY REFUSING TO PAY COURT FEES FOR PHIRI JUST AS THEY WERE PAID FOR YOUR EXCELLENCY ZUMA IN YOUR "CORRUPTION" TRIAL.  WHERE IS THE EQUALITY ENSHRINED BY "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY" CONSTITUTION IF ZUMA BY VIRTUE OF MEMBERSHIP TO THE RULING PARTY CAN HAVE STATE PAYMENT OF HIS EXPENSES BUT PHIRI JUST BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER AND WITH NO POLITICAL PARTY TO BACK HIM?

3. LINDIWE SISULU KNOWS VERY WELL THAT SOUTH AFRICA'S CONSTITUTION AND REQUISITE LAWS MAKE IT UNLAWFUL FOR HER TO PROSECUTE PHIRI SEEING THAT I WAS PROSECUTED (AND THERE IS AMPLE PROOF OF MY BLOG AND COURT PAPERS ALL AROUND) BECAUSE OF DARING TO EXPOSE NELSON MANDELA'S COUSIN, BRIGADIER GENERAL BOBELO-ZINI WHO, AS A MAJOR WHEN I BLEW THE WHISTLE, HAD NO RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH THE BEDROOOM WITH AT LEAST ONE COLONEL RAYMOND LENTSOE) AND STILL HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH SISULU'S THEMBU TRIBALISM AND EASTERN-CAPE REGIONALISM) TO REMAIN A BRIGADIER GENERAL OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS AND SHOULD BE PROSECUTED  INSTEAD TOGETHER WITH HER BOYFRIEND LENTSOE... NOT PHIRI

1)      APPLICATION FOR RECUSAL OF JUDGE

2)      WITNESS NUMBER 1 :  : LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI (Hereinafter referred to as "ACCUSED") GIVES EVIDENCE UNDER OATH
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You can commence, Defence Counsel.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah, just take off the microphone there. Hold it near to you.

3)      EXAMINATION IN CHIEF:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Colonel Phiri,    we've nr,             reached the stage where, in terms of your instructions, you want to move an application that the court recuses itself.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yes, Defence Counsel.   (unclear) Defence Counsel.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I would be pleased if you woul(-1 k.ndlv giveyour reasons as to why the judge, Ic;'nc- a nOiltzary judge, must recuse himself.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         As it pleases the court, : would like to have the senior military    dge, with alloe resect, to refuse himseLf in preparation for a n==',7 judge to oversee the actual trial of the case the followino reasons, the main Of which   a'zsessme           OE  the performance of the senior departmental judge since he cook over from his predecessor. The assessment is such that the judge is not applying his mind in tnese Previous applications chat I've made, without fear or favour. nave observed one work.ings and doings of the previous of the senior military judde in the previous appearance in this court, so if my memory serves-me well that was on 31 January, and it came to my attention that there too much, I mean too much supervision on the workings of the judge. And this supervision tattle in the shape of the Director cf Departmental judges who can be named here as 35  Brigadier General Mvburgh, and I've reason          believe as was well that there    also too much supervision on the workings and decisions that were taken by the senior departmental judge on that particular day, also which emanated from the local representative of Adjutant General. I am raising this as an issue because this case has attracted so much attention and has been so much for the ...may I call it the establishment of the SANDF that . . which I mus: out on record here for the court, they even resorted to denigrating my name in the media. And I will also -=,7ate for the record here that the adjutant general was part of this whole exercise, which was wrongful in my view, and I've also put in a redress of wrong to :he Chief of the SANDF to that effect and he did respond to it thankfully.

4)      But my point here is if immediate subordinates of the adjutant general come to court and give each and every step that the senior departmental judge must take if applications are making I'm no: surprised that today the finding on my application documents is negative. That is my first point, Judge.

5)      My second point for a rec est for rousal Of the judge is also contingent, or it                t: first ocint.listened with a lot avidness and interest to the reason for the refusal and I've discovered that nothing substantial comes what the Military Disciplinary Code-MDC says about the role of the jul-ige on the of documents. I hear a lot of comment in :elation to hat the Access to Information Act says, but I must put it for the record here that insofar as that is concerned, and which was reached with the assistance of the court, through the whole process with the Access to Information Act and one Doctor Pli" G flendriks, if I've got the name ri,j ..- made a ruling on behalf of  the SANDF or the DOD's. to Information Act directorate that the court is the one to make a decision based on the Military Disciplinary Code-MDC. I don't hear this in the reasons for the 35              court rejecting my plea.                I think this is based on the too much supervision I've  referred to.  Generals of this army, particularly General ... (unclear) and General Smit would  like to see me being found guilty and I have proof of this by his(unclear) ... of my name and accessing sub judice information to the media.        That was my second reason, Judge. My third reason to ask for your recusal is as simple as this, you mentioned by the way that you will not, according to your views and you quoted many cases, be asked to recuse yourself because tacitly agreed to give Exhibits "A" and "E" which were supporting my request for access for information. True, it was a tacit agreement on my part, but it's an agreement that you should read ... have privy on the information based on the very recalcitrance, for lack of a better word, of the court, especially the judge in this case to accec: the principle of me having access to information that alluded to, printed -in state witnssP.s. And I want to say here the predecessor of the current senior departmental judge in the Person of Cfl7on,=l  Lüüs didn't ask to have Exhibits parting. shot when he left the court, said, the prosecutor must provir-IF¬  tho documents. If today 1--h= senior departmental judges had privy to the case it's because the senior departmental judge, because of his lack of independence, because of the too much supervision allowed himself that - should co to the expense of giving the exhibits. I think one must go back in the records and w='11 discover that whether it was on record or not, but it was said in this court by the predecessor of the current senior military judge that I should have those documents. I am saying then, as a last word, the statutes of the departmental courts of the SAND are plain and simple. 'It's provided for in the Military Disciplinary Code-MDC that I should have documents per judgement of the senior departmental judge, not the judgement of his or her supervisors and in this case the predecessor like I said Colonel Lüüs said that I should have the documents.         I think the current senior militaryjudge is not acting out of independence.I close my reasons for the request for the recusal, Judge. Thank you.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: Anything             further from your witness,  Colonel Simelane?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, those are the reasons.    We stand by those reasons.

6)      JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You didn't want him to add possibly something else? You yourself you're satisfied with the  evidence given?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I'm satisfied ... (unclear)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    Right.    As this is a n.atter between myself and The Accused ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No ... can I just say this? Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, I was expecting that there would be an opportunity for you to ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, I' m trying to think, this w,-)uLd the appropriate procedure to follow ...
DPc7..NC;T:                Because I will ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                to            afford   the         !--,-,se-uion       the opportunity to possibly cross-examine if she likes, but -);        ... yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        She will also wan: to make somelegal arguments.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    Are there any questions that- the prosecutor might have wanted to ask?.
PROSECUTOR:           None, thank you, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.    And then . .ja, the next stage would be for legal argument, and not even for myself to let'S say put my point of view here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                That will then be              . yes, for you :hen to address the court please.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, Colonel, you can return to your seat.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Thank you, Judge.
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               I might just say that my silence at this stage on the issue does not mean, and should not be taken that, I as the presiding officer in this court, do agree with what The Accused has said in his evidence. I dispute that, with all respect due to him.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Er ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, the court is aware  at it cannot descend to the arena ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: No, T can't.
DEFENCE.... of
JUDGE          I mean T'm in a difficult cesition here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... of int...

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I can't be prosecutor, a:;=. and jury all -)0             at the same time. nannotl_terr:,-;ate the(unclear)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: No. I just wanted to pmt this on record that I, with respect, do not agree.           Okay? And I de-;y,  deny any command influence of supervision ercerc '' m an "independent oul", if         mav put it in invert=d commas that.            T would even have donned a gown today just to like my real independence, okav, contrary to =l1 rules :: regulations about dress'.       But you carry on with your addressingthe court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases.

7)      ADDRESS BY DEFENCE ON APPLICATION FOR RECUSAL
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, the law is trite oh this issue of 35                recusal.        The law is trite and the constititio,a1 Courts has also pronounced on this issue of recusal.              The court will be aware in the recorded cases of the SARVU case that Louis Luyt
(Defence seems not to be speaking into the microphone
making it difficult to hear what he's saying) to have the court recuse itself and
this matter's been dealt with.            Judge, we're dealing with
the reasonableness of bias that,Judge, The Accused needs to establish the reasonableness of bias in his mind that he will not .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
Do  you        want      to            possibly                say         the possibility of bias being perceived?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. (unclear)          Yes, he perceives
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Justice must be seento be done?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                It must not only be done.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Justice must be do
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Trite law.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Justice must be seen to te done               . the grounds upon which a reasonable person could see than the 7)0    accused intends of his perceived reasonable man.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
Of his oossible fairness          the tria_(unclear) .          sustain in this case.         He ___ see this kind  of benefit.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: well in regard to a fair trial.          Now, the 'acts must speak right as for themselves .       I've al ready indicated that i t Hs not for the court to descend and argue- -as- -to the correctness or 30 otherwise- those facts presented by          accused as relating to the court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                It's an objective test that must be applied.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        The court should not descend,. because the very point of descending ... (unclear) .,. the case.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                That's right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. That ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I might add that this court, myself then, in person I'm sensitive to all those considerations.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        .. (unclear) the court is indeed sensitivebecause it is my submission . you know would say would one want to proceed and hear a matter when a witness has an accused has taken the stand as a witness and testified as to the oerceived bias that would the court want to take that kind of courage that the court would like to try a person who has in a full convictions and has even taken oath and opened himself to examination and that state has failed, declined to cross-examine in which it could be presumed taken his grievance in the failure of the state to cross-examine Colonel Phiri that his evidence is basically unchallenged. And is not for the court to challenge this kind of evidence. vfln k T was in a di"icult nositjon. rightly said, I couldn't have cer-en-i-d into the a''-ehe because T'm no a party to this. And the prosecutor was the same difficult position because how can she -reap_  interfere? How does she know what went on in the mind the court and between the courtand whoever.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, Judge, I'm coming to the incidenc mentioned by Colonel Phiri;            These are not in the minds of anybody. The coming of General Nlyburgh and coming into this court and sitting at the back there is not in the mino of anybody, it's the sameprosecutor that was here and she saW General Myburgh.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:The and a judgement was asked. matter was stood down in order for General Myburgh to go into the chambers and discuss with the judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay. Can I just come in here, because I want to have this put on record.             I asked the advice of General Myburgh and because this was something new which I had not dealt with before, a situation like this. Rnd as time went on and between then and now I've made a study of the law, and what I read out just now in AhnPxur=s "R" and is my understanding of the law. And I might add that contrary to what one would normally would expect after having perused the Exhibits "R-E"far in my mind I have a better understandingthe of the case at this stage, ramifications, the .an appreciation, possibly even a sympathy for the defence's case at this stage. I'm not biased, and I want to put this on record, I'm not otased against The Accused.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, that
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And        I               personally           have      had similar experiences in my own career as I gather that The Accused has.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: the fact
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So what T want to put on r,7=cord is that understand the case now better than I would have understood if I only had read through the charge sheet, because as know the charge sheet merely puts, as it were, the prosecution's side of the case. Okay, but you can carry  on.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes,        come to that later in argument,
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: In relation to the authori ies you, mentioned...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:        country... we where you put...
Especially in that the procedure in this not being a continental procedure of Europe
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Or Canada.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . yes, this is an ... (unclear) system and the judges have gone into these things now, but I'll deal with that later.         I'm ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, but I'm saying here again, putting it on record, the tacit consent given by the defence to this court
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, I .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
.. to peruse the document. Whether I...I don't want to interfere.     Carry on.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... I'll deal with that at a later stage.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:the I'm now         on the question                that  prosecutor has failed to cross-examine, the: .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, can I just say here.             She cannot be seen to side with the court, isn't that so?
DEFENCE,:   The court is ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                From an objective point of view.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The court is now .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                As thcuan she now has a 4.ob to protect this man sitting here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, the conrt nnw ornsecutor,
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                No.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... at the next stage .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                No.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:...the- judge, at the next stage don't know .         defence counsel, just prosecutor and judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                We are both saying this 'ith a smile, Colonel Simelane. There you are laughing as well.no carry on.      Thank you for that we can have this lighter  moment.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. Thank you, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                BecaUSe- one   it's not good and one cannot think clearly if you are hot under the collar.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed, Sir. Judge, the long and short of it on this question of supervision it's simply that there-is incontrovertible evidence before this court ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. that your superior in the person of General Myburgh, in the course of these proceedings whilst she was sitting here as a member of the party, decided this the court decided it would like guidance because the court ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                On how to deal with the procedural matter. That was what it was all about.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... in ... yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Because I have only recently come back as a judge. I have not been in the defence force for the last  three years since the Military Disciplinary Supplementary Measures Act-MDSMA had come into operation.
DEFENCE :   No, the
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay?
DEFENCF      ja, the court now com.bromised itself immensely ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
DEFENCE.    orth= 717estion of its independence combetenr-e to deal with the issues and it cwn admission that it had to    .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, can I just come in there? it standard practice for any judge
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... to consult with his colleagues?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not in the course of proceebLings.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okayi-but I'm open         andI don't do it behind anybody'_ back.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.,
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thankyou.
this .court is that the court compromised its independence that in the eyes ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:
your mind, your ... (unclear) .             utterances could be your own ... (unclear) ... utterances.             The whole suggestions of supervisions and things suggest questions of  deals that might be done and we can't really ... (unclear) . . of the 5        judge's mind. question of supervision in the exercise of Judicial sanction the compromise of the independence thatthn facts clearly support Colonel Phiri that he has a reasonable fear that, "Now my right to a fair trial would be thrown into the dustbin" and this a constitutional right. This is one on supervision. On the question of the records, judge, this court must understand that by coming here in its person does not change the continuity of these proceedings. That this court in the person of Colonel Lulli.--; ordered, 20 directed the defence to pursue theprooed re of the Informatinn Act that we sho,ild(unclear) Phiri to cfet the documents thrtu n the Trfnmetilcnel And for that purpose we explored those avenues ,--eking to get that information. And a ruling was made, which brought to this court and it is on record thet the deciswiao: of DoctorHenarikse on- behalf of the department, ,=s an officer r-1 chatae of the Information Act, not that because he is not ... The Accused    thet 'r.--.)cause to those records because the case had coe'ni:ert7 i:ntitled should mm be the court processthat must furnish him with the records.In other words, the right to thebi s rights  to the records were not denied. It was implied tbnSentthat "Fair enough, you need these records but we cannot give you them now 35             because that- process has started, no. Those letters are on record, were submitted here are part of this record that, "Okay, the court process must give you." And for that reason the parting shot that's the phrase used by Colonel Phiri in his evidence of Colonel Lutis as a sitting judge here was that the prosecution should get the documents.

8)      JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right. I had no such communications from Colonel Lutis. I didn't know about that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Now
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . Judge, the records of this court it was incumbent upon this judge, the present judge, the sitting judge ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Myself?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. It was incumbent to go through when the judge takes over a case that has been going on for well  over a year and theres have been sittings here, difficult.              One cannot see how an incoming judge cannot start from            ▪ (unclear) many              .               (unclear)  proceedings for lack of a better word, because we haven't 20               pleaded.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Pre-trial orcced r,-=s?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Ye=, pre-trial orocedures taking place and going on record.        If the court has not read those  records the record willa the court will not form proper view of what is taking place.It's not that the  court should have gone to Colonel LuOs and ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: say, "Colonel Luhs, what do you want to tell       The records are there.- Matters are record when you come to court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Sorry, can I just come in there?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                —I—wanted ' tt ' keep my mind as open as possible, not to be influenced by anybody, Colonel LuCis or 35              Brigadier General My-burgh or whoever. I am proud of my own independence.        I am an admitted attorney.          I am a retired permanent force officer. I am a part-time judge.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: This is conceded, Judge.               We are not talking about extraneous issues    that the judge   is  mentioning.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not extraneous issues
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I want to put this on record to try and show how I see myself, my independence.        That I'm not subject to command influence.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We appreciate that ... (unclear)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                If the people don't like the way I do my job then obviously they can say, "We don't need your services any more."
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. The important .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                P,nd by that I mean peccLe who               in charge of departmental judges.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The important thing here, Judge,             when we talk about the record proceedings we'                talking about things that are part of the case. We're -t talkie 7 =lbout= things outside. We are talking about s=ying, "LOO", T/m coming at this stage. This matter has been going on, what is the history of this case? What does the record --ay?" Because if we go to the next court, even a High Court wherever the last courts of this country, they would he working on the records as to where the matter stared. They won't be interested in people who have gone, like Colonel Lüüs was, for example, retired. They won't he looking at Colonel Lüüs               They'll be looking and-the of proceedings what Colonel Lüüs said he ever said in this case, what he was doing in court, so it was incumbent .on.. this court to say if it comes to a matter that has beer' proceedingg—fOr a while, that the court should read the record.              Should familiarise himself with the record and know what has taken. place, not the person of Colonel Lüüs.... (unclear)     ... didn't No, that is she -record.                The Okay, for whati 's worth .. It's not     individual. Okay. It started from Colonel Lüüs.   It court where thepresent court is continued Okay.        Can (unclear) we just say =et on record only starts once the rh.alrge sheet has been read and The Accused has been asked to plead. Do you agree with me on that?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, even this procedure, we are on now, the application for this recusal, presently before this court ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: It is relevant, yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: It is relevant to the final outcome of the case.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Precisely.

9)      JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:Mm ...kind of     . (unclear) .         of this Access to Information Act.  Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Now ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But that is outside of this court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: In what way?
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I can only deal with matters in the four corners of this court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Precisely.             Now, we are saying no-:: your predecessor
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . insisted ..          this court now, because we're talking in this court .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, but .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... that ..
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                . is it your             that I as the new judge am bound what he previously did or said?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .               (unclear) Judge, we had (unclear)           . jurisdiction on ... your jurisdiction hasn't- changed. It would ... the rulings he has made are 'jou=  rulings, are the rulings of this court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:        Okay. Yes.           So the court is     bound by all rulings that have been done. -.So the point is th=refnr-e a.s  we say the parting shot was that this document must be  given, that the prosecution ... I was standing here and the (unclear)       was said, "Prosecutor,   get        those documents."         It meant that not less, not more that thoss  documents must be handed in. And whether it'c, what Colonel Lüüs or Colonel Venter said to this court, it is she direCtions of this court and those documents should have been given. Now, there is a question therefore of bias-If there is that change, if therefore the present court is deviating from its colleague on the same rulings of this court, directions of this court and makes a finding to say, "Now, I've considered this" and reads the statement read today ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, can I just come in here?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... then obviously this means there's a clear apprehension that ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay ..
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... there won't be no      (unclear)  there's a new judge who has come, he says, no, It's coming, now I'm at the slaughter ... (unclear)

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Can I just come in here and say that in my own mind, and I'm not all-knowing, and :'m not the Chief Justice of this country, but in my own min:i believe that the ruling I made in this court is the correct ruling according to the law.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes,
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I stand to be corrected.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        Judge, judge must appreciate we're dealing with the law ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: we don't look at sub'ective  ssues- We donfl-
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I'm not being
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I'm saying that in my own hind : believe, with due respect, that I've made the correct rulin7,.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        Fair enoucfh, we ...

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: we are dealing with The perceived, justice must be seen to be done, "must be...

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right, I know that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                .....From The Accused to ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I've always used that myself.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: froM--The Accused ....are now we saying a reasonable person cannot see that justice is being done if the same court ... I'm not talking of Persson ... ii   the same court on this day has diretted. .certain records be given to The Accused. The next time round, the same court makes orders, rulings that The Accused must not get these records. Now
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You mean the next man, sitting in the middle here?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, but ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Where I'm sitting?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But, Judge, it is now . as I'm saying, legally it is the same court.            It
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, sure.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It is the same court, I'm sure you' appreciate that.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: That is the same court, therefore that if this is so, Judge, if it is so that the court is conceding therefore th=tgood reason has been made. T1-'s more than good, that if- the same court makes different direction and a different ruling on the same issue,which iS of such fundamental mportance into The Accused's rights to a fair trial, and in terms of documents those vi- s       re  make for all to see who sees ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    flolonel Simela e,              was_ 't  this court, as itwere, constituter de17010 when            came to sit here?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, Judge, we ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Theprevious court was, as dissolved. That            a way in which this can be seen.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  The ... that court was not sitting alone He elected to thi=trial -sitting, -with
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  I swore them in.             This assessor on my .....right-hand side sat with,Colonel Lüüs, but she was sworn in cie novo as well so for what it's worth a view can be taken that this court is sitting .. was constituted cknovo. A new court, completely new court and - started my-   Proceedings in this court  de,„ novo by using this record OF  proceedings, which had not been used by my predecessor, Colonel Lüüs.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  Yes, but you are bound by the records, by the decision .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  For what it's worth, may be you
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  (unclear)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: have a valid point there, but it's for ... not for me to decide.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But tho-e decisions were the. decision of thi s court. That point has been made adequately now; Judge. I don't want to belabou-  it much further
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  Yes
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  The point is clear tha court the same ourt made certain directions and those directions were in favour of The Accusedbeing furnished with certain d              m ocuents, which he reire- to be fur ished with this tri al .         Fcr- some reason             a lack of oerformance
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  Okay, can          just stop vou there?       If l't's say in wiser -inclh,-7--nt or whatever decidee n o, have to recuse myselft and the next time, another m,en sits here what woOd the          T-on be the Nod he have to rDro eed      from Paragraph 17 of the record proceedings  We've done .. or should he start de novo from tee
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  No.        Judge, your ruling stands.            If decide now on the overwhelming evidence that «beforeVmu , 30  You go along. and recue yourself we ,cannot, when a judge comes and brinds an application for you for documents because he is that person willnot be a an Appeal Court ol he will not be reviewing he cannot review himself.
JUDGE. That's right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  So we are stuck with this decision.          Tt not this a matter, which we can take in the last forum, which is court so this should then indicate to thee.judge the importance that this argument we are puttina now, if there's a basis at the end of this case that we proceed to the next court, this argum=nt will be presented to the next court. And it will be seen that these flaws, these are huge flaws in decisions, that these flaws have a bearing on the fairness of his trial.   Has a ... it cannot be undone now.  Maybe if the situation could be saved to a large extent if the present court would then recuse itself so that we continue further with a new person, on new matters that we are left with some measure of balance that there be some fairness.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.    Can I just stop you there?  Colonel Simelane, we are now at the eighth tape in this  case, and the case has not even started yet.       Is it not in the interests of an accused to have his ca== disposed of as soon as possible?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge,
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And is this a thing tnat is really allowed in court, that so much time in pre-orial croceures 20 be wasted?      I'm asking this objectively,           a rhetorical  question.
DEFENCE.  Judge, trials have taken to w=11 o five years this court would know about that. important thing obviously is the fairness of those trials, unless we go minutely that the law is fo'lowed into the letter,     that        in            this constitutional            cemocracv          the constitution really invests the people Wit'_ the rights, which is intended to confer, to bestow on these people that we cannot _leave The Accused. .to leave his constitutional benefits.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.    I'm          .. ... P also the    rO ==7.6. of those rights, being the judge of this court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we are  the institutions of this country established by that constitution, but w= are now dealing with the issue where we are cringing this application for recusal within the  framework of            the constitutional decisions of this court ... of this country. That the constitutional court has then said that "If a court has a reasonable perceived ... that the reasonable perceptions that he will not get a fair trial, that thatcourt must recuse himself           It is not something individual  like that the court must then be subjective and say, "Look, what I've done is ..." there is a perceived on fair that reasonable so it maybe so.          You know, and if that is so
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, can I just stop you there?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                On either side of me are two assessors, which were appointed to this court as assessors of facts, and a criminal trial revolves around facts. And as .-fr I know the assessors next to me, well        terms of the rules, they Mayeven me when we come to a decision on facts, for instance, is the man guilty on this charge or isn't he? So what could The Accused have more fair than that? You know there's an English saying, "You can't have your cake and eat it." You understand what : mean? D=FENr-Th             Judge

10)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You        can't      have      eve_  yourself.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, the court is digressing.    We are dealing with an application
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.,   You're talking about objective facts,        just wanted to put that on record.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we're talking about an. Obligation for recusal of this-court. We'venot given
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What do you want ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We're not talking about other matters. W,e
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What do you Want 'in a person sitting here where I am sitting?  Do you also_ want somebody who would suit The Accused?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, let's not confuse things

11)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:

12)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:

13)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:

14)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:

15)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:

16)   The Accused?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  I'm trying to
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER: No, I'm asking you that. With ... Do you want somebody who would We ex...... let's say be very sympathetic towards The Accused has gone into Because a judge should be impartial, and be impartial
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: witness stand.  Judge, Okay. Judge, The Accused had gone into tile and has given evidence as to the grounds upon which the court must recuse itself.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We're not talkind about any =xtraneous issues. The evidence is before this court, th= evidence has not been challenged.             We are saying, for the defence that that evidence sustains. because I can't, as it tr:=Th get into the wness box and surely couldn't cross-Pzamin= The Accused.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We are ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                So I am in a difficult position.      Please understand that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Please, is sin.ple we are asking The Accused is asking for your recusal.              It doesn't cost a penny when a berson's future is Put into that kind of block-.  When he's put between the anvil and a- hammer it must not be that the court wants to play a role when its role has been  eliminated by the facts and the law, that......it's the situation, the facts, evidence has eliminated the court         The courtshould do an honourable thing whenaih application of this nature has come before the court has been sustained.        We have mentioned a number of irregularities. We've mentioned the flaws in decisions made and
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What flaws in decision made?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: (unclear) ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                If for instance these decisions that I've made, that I believe were correct, what about that, is that a flaw?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's          . Judge, you shouldn't go Into certain issues, which we are not dealing with.       We started when I opened my mouth here to present this argument, I started with a statement that "the law is trite". Now we shouldn't . (unclear) the law is trite.  I went further, when I said the law is trite, I said the constitutional court had pronounc=d itself on this  question of recusal.            I went further, Judt'=, I said the Scufu case, it's a case, which is to be :zed. is a  milestone on this question of recusal, the LortisLuyt case

17)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, I know.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        Now the case is cc:77= knowledge, is trite and I'm saying on those recuiremenc= foe recusal the perceived reasonableness of bias       say on the evidence, Judge, on t-h= evriPncP, iunch.ellenged.  The  court says, "I was in a problem myse17', difficulties  because I could not cOme and give evidPnce atainst the ..." This suggests, if some onus is being placed uoon the court that it is to rebut thi=, a person mightha-:e to get onto the stand and give evidence, this registers that the judge must recuse himself if it comes to a point :1-1r= he says if the judge says              "Look, the kind of evidence that comes before me now, which is ad... which challenges me would require me to put some onus on me to rebut this, and the only thing I could do is to go to the witness stand." The Not froM the podium, up there. Go to the witness stand and put myself on record, then it's ,.. (unclear`      'I must recuse myself,    It simply says that.           If it Puts.              it places an onus ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Can I just refer to a recent case that we all know of? Do you remember the case of DoctorWouterBasson?

18)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, I've mentioned it to my learned friend here.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Where the prosecution asked for the recusal of the judge?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And in the end he decided no, he's not going to recuse himself.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, that's what I was saying to my learned friend, that that decision .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And that case stands, as far as I know up to this stage. Although .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. that case it's ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                there     was        some     talk         :hat        the prosecution, whoever wanted tfl to ke that de=ision on re-iiew or so?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, the prosecution has not done tc the
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What 7'm             rvi ; to say is
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... he has placed the whole of that tfial in jeopardy in the sense that i f that different court ,::.ere  to find that he should .indeed hav;?, reoLsed hi:rase-1f, thoss. proceedings should be set aside, huge sums cf mcnies were spent in that trial
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                The trial to start denovo?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, the trial will start :::/iovo.    We are facing that situation
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Isn't that what we .are .trying to prevent here?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We are ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I want to put on record, I have an open mind here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I haven't taken any ..      I haven't closed my mind to any side of any issues.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, that ... the judge must be wary, that's what I was saying, if the judge keens on saying, "I haven't done that, I haven't done that",         those are subjective comments. And we are known ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But I want to put it on record, Et vd-1 can hear it, you and your client.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        We are saying the law talks- of reasonable        perceived reasonable bias, not what the subjective mind of the judge is, not the subjective mind of the judge. That is the law. The constitutional court has laid it down that the courts will deal with the questions of bias of recusal in this nature, not the mind of the judge. So the judoe is not giving evidence to tell us its mind.      It's what 7'm saying that if the onus now is T:Lacel-, that the judge would like to counter the evidence, the legislature says that the judge must recuse himself.
JUDrzF:         I'm trying to look at it from of view of the administration of justice as well.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                You know, cases cannot carry on lik=this.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But, Judge .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . that thing for the adjutant general it's just Mentioned evidence ho'w the adjutant general has impacted on this case that The Accused has written redress of wrongs - 'to the Chief on the question of the adjutant general, now the court keeps on getting into the role                of            the        adjutant general              talking   about    the  administration of justice, of the military justice

(End of tape 8)

(Transcription commences on tape 9)

JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                No,         I               I'm          talking   about    the administration of justice in general, in all courts of this  country.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: This is    . the Military Disciplinary Supplementary Measures Act-MDSMA talks about the functions of ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                That there should .          cases should be dealt with ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                ... expeditiously.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        Proper courts world see and know applications of this nature, will deal with the issues. We  in fact, coming back to the Wouter Basson case because what has happened in these documents cannot be undone, even  if the judge can recuse himself now, we cannot go back this application. We'll continue further from there on.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yeah.
DEFENC77.: And this is history, which will a=fect this case, which will obviously affect 7his case because  the present court did not listen to the tapes, did not .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Wait, wait. a       to do and chat: job is to see to it that The Accused receives a fair and I am committed to that job.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Ju...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                That is what        . all I :an 8ay in matter .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: es, if
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                .. 'I should decide to ack up now, somebody else will have to start from the be ginning.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                And then we are back to square one.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, no, no ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                -Now .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: That's not the case. What I'm saying is
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Just give me an opportunity.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I'm now, tape number 9
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The judge ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Number 9, and we haven't even started with trial.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . is misdirecting himself ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Why?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: if he says we'll start from square one. We are not going to start from square one. We cannot re-open this application on these documents.  It's done with, and it's done. We are going to the next stage, so the court must not misdirect itself and say if it rebuses itself, we are going to start from square one. We are not going to start from square one. This is alr-=ady the record of this case. The new person that will dom== cannot undo this record. That's what we are saying that had this court listened to the tapes and looked for transcriptions he would get ... know that certain decisions :::=r= made all along on certain issues. That he must ... a
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  Those ... I would like to conult the law books    on           this point,            but         those are applications and rulings, and are they real binding?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: you ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Are they really binding cn some (unclear) courts, or some functionary sittind in a place behind ... (unclear)
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge, it's .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:.               Especially  if  one takes the view that
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
.....JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:         . that we had actually started going nowhere with these court proceedings when : took my pace on this bench.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No,         (unclear) Judge, there were other.applications. The records, if the record is shown of the previous appearances the court will then see what transpired there.  The court did not wan: to give itself that benefit of going through that record. You started ... (unclear) ... where you start. If the present ourt now, on this overwhelming evidence and circumstances, calls for the constitutional the next court will start further and say, "Are we starting the trial? Are we taking pleas?" We are not going back to documents, previous applications what, what, because all those are ... if we go to a record of this case, it's being prepared
may maybe... (unclear)    miilitary Appeals after .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: this         it would record since 2001 or wherever started, the Court of the entire that is the record that will go to them.     The CMA wile look frcm the onset of this case, "in1='ll see what Co-:`el Venter or Colonel LuU.:. did, whet Colonel Venter dit, what .=noth=r Colonel that might come indeed did,  until the conclusion the case."
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:

19)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:This will be the trial record, Judge. Okay. Before the CMA.  Point 7-.ken. Yes. And this will be the same :hi:- we go from the CMA to the High Court. The High _kart i need the entire record of the CMA, prior record (-'77a (-.-DUrt of Senior Departmental judge, so we are          :0            tart  afresh.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: If this     was to do an honourable thing and recuse itself we wi11-then continue, fix a date 30 with my learned friend who will then arrange a trial date.  And if ..and the next senior military juke comes, he will commence the trial.        He will ... these docum.ents are history and all other things, part of the record
.JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: because this court has the rulings ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . which have impacted in the upshot of  this application for recusal.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Colonel, is there much more that you want to say, or do you think you have made your point?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. I have something more to say now.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, on?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: On . . Judge, I think I've made my point on the other matters.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: First .. (unclear)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: On these questions of the record and Supervision
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Em.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: that has been made.  Now, I'm cumin these comments, which the 7udge made in its rUJ_ r."; The court is aware that those . the cases, which the court was reading, referring to, which Gardner d: 110M d011'ne we're talking about.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes.        1957?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, some were 1923 and things.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
DEFENCE.:   Judge, are the cases when you sti 11 the-preparatory- examJnon-prOCedure?
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                What     is             the         PI?          Preliminary Investigatioh.?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .. (unclear)          . We . . those cases deal..             with the preparatory examination.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Which is the position that has been discarded in this. country?  not the preparatory examinations.              If the judge had referred us to ... talked of cases that have to do with 15         that procedure within the military convention, it would have been more persuasive, but that'sa point to Est mention.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But, the authorities, ,udge, like 7've said, they are trite. The questionsQi recusal T VCUld say, the grounds are more than sufficient.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm. E FNoR       That in the wel I meant comments or the li'oarter ECISSOn case that  we are          lacing the state at riskk of incurring more costs if this trial was to be set aside bV higher courts, and especially in the light of the ruling. This is a more serious comment, the more serious i n the light of the ruling in refusing these Opcuments. v..nen
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                When the defence still has that remedy ......when the prosecution witnesscomes here, and ~ha prosecution witness has access to certain documentary evidence, this court can say to that prosecution witness, "You  know,at the request of the defence, but youhave access to that. I would like to see those documents.":
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: There will be .2062-03:Phid(v0
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                I would like you to bring it here and hand it in to the court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: There will be no witness, Judge, to be frank who'll be having an Inspector General’s Report, that Board of 5 Enquiry that was done at the army college.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                But the incoming ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Ye...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  will       ask         for          t t man to be subpoenaed.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Who ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                As a defence witness.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Ask who to be subpoenaed: (1=nral
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Or could even ask the court to call
witnesses, because at the end ofthe case, the court can 15 also decide to call witnesses.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  Judge, the          court ha= denied to make an ord-r that these documents be furnished.On what basis would we do a thing now ... you
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Colonel                I was mak_L       a fl---7
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No ...

20)   JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:. "of equal ry or arms!'

21)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:   in         i inverted             commas,              with       an exclamation marks and I think of document=,- handed in defence and the documents to be used at tics stage by the prosecution, is only a small part of th,,, of documents handed in. No equality of arms.

22)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Defence is not outgunned, - Defence is outgunning the prosecution by the looks of it.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The ... you know, the ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, that was said in a lighter vein. I'm smiling. Okay? I see you sM11ingas Well.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes         The important thing here, Judge, is the law with regard to recusal in the debisions of the 2062-03,Thiri(■0 213 questionable court and the point that has been made that fairness will now elude Colonel Phiri
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Are you saying this court cannot be fair anymore? The man sitting here, where I'm sitting?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Indeed.                I couldn't say i7= .
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Are you saying that with great respect?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: With great respect, that the evidence suggests and indeed the evidence is incontrovertible and  that The Accused was not even cross-examined on the issues because they were taken as given that ... you know, it remains on charges. Now, the point is ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                This court is not in cchorts with the prosecution or anybody higher up.   I'm independent. would stress that fact, okay? I hope you accept that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's a sup.             anyway it's not within the law because        sublective. We ...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay, you made that point earlier.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We made that point,      that this application is within grounds of reasonableness.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Nm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: P=r("d reasonableness, and that is the law as we understand it.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay. I have no further submissions
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:Thank ynu.          Let the tour= just make a  note here.

23)   (Recording machine was switched off)
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Counsel for the prosecutio:- do you wish to reply?
PROSECUTOR:           As it pleases the court, Jut:e.

24)   REPLY EY PROSECUTION

25)   prosecutor because it's in no means within the knowledge the prosecutor to be challenged. Second...
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Do you mean when you asked, "Do you have any questions in cross-examination to The Accused", when he gave evidence?
PROSECUTOR:           That's correct, Judge.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Okay.
PROSECUTOR:           In the first instance the Prosecution would like to state that in no way was it cut by the defence on what grounds in terms of the Military Disciplinary Supplementary Measures Act-MDSMA they are bringing this application for recusal of the judge. believe that this application is brought in terms of 35 and 36 of the Military Disciplinary Supplementary Measures Act-MDSMA, which it states that, "In terms of 35(b-has, or during trial gained such knowledge concerning the facts of the case to be heard by the court that his or her decision is likely to be preudiced thereby either/or bears any accused, or during the trial develops towards an_: accused such animosity as is likely to prejudice his or he= decision, either/or where The Accused signet or signed as a witness on The Accused's election form to be disciplines-_ heard", which is not applicable in this case The question, as has been __so dealt wi-In by the defence, is the case c=several cr)nsttutional court cases the prosecution would like to refer to i  in th.is regard, for application for judicial recusal was considered in two recent judgements in the constitutional court instance, the President of the Repub:ic of South Africa an. Others versus t=12E-' South 4fi-ican Ruh t Football Union and Others, 1999 4)    SALR Constitutional COUrt, ' the SARFU case, as the defence referred to it and The South African Commercial Cateiing ,Allied Workers Union and Others..v Irvin & Johnson referred to as the  SACCATFU , case In this case it was quite clearly what is being considerec to be impartiality or partiality by a judge, and I quote according of the SARFU case, paragraph 48,  "The question is whether a reasonable objective and informed person would, on the correct facts, reasonably apprehend that the judge has not, or will not bring an impartial mind to bear on the adjudication of the case. That is a mind open to persuasion by the evidence and the submissions of counsel.  The reasonableness of the apprehension  must be assessed in the light of the oath' of office    taken    by the   judge to administer        justice        withoutfear        or  favour."  Which was several times reiterated by the judge that he has an open mind regarding this case, and will judge this Case without fear and favour. "And their ability to carry out that oath by reason of theirand training experience.  It must be assumed that they can          disabuse              their      =Lnds    of any irrelevant Personal beliefs          Of predispositions.          They 7s.t take into account the fact that the; have a duty to sit in any case in which they are not obliged to rP.,-11  themselves. At the same time it must never be forgotten that an impartial judge is a fundamental prerequisite for a fair trial. And _a judicial officer should not hesitate to recuse himself or herself if there are reasonable grounds on part of the litigant or accused,rhat apprehending the judicial officer, for whatever reason Was not, or will not  be Judge, in the first instance it is clear that an objective test and a reasonable test is recuired from the informed person, which the judge himself is.  An informed person that is adjudicating a matter that hasn't  even started yet, where an oath has been taken by the said  judge to preside over the case or judge over the case, sit in the case, without fear or favour.  When it is required from a judge to be impartial it's never required from a judce to be neutral because a judge still stays human, and he can't divorce himself from his experiences or any judicial law or law that he is faced with. Furthermore, in that regard, or to stand off that point, the prosecution really found _ very interesting how the defence contradicted =r-self in terms constantly, because in the first instance it is referred to as "Judgement" or "Judges" or rulings that were made by Colonel Lüüs, which the court has to adhere 7:o. But in the next sense the defence is making an'apoication once again for documentation in terms of the constitution and never on the grounds of a ruling that was made by a previous judge, but on application of the constitution.  Thirdly, I cannot understand why we have to deal with an application of the documents as the court already made a decision on this application, which understand as a judgement, or    ruling that is final regarding this. As the prosecution recalls -_self that the only ruling that was mad.e regarding previous sittings by Colonel Lüüswas regarding the recusal of im--,1f, never regarding documents or an application made in terms of documents, and that the prosecution had to brovide to the defence.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Was there ever such a ruling in open court here by Colonel.Lüüs? .          ..
PROSECUTOR:           There was no formal application in that regard, or ruling by Colonel Lüüs regarding documents that must be provided by the prosecution, to the defence.           In your case, or your application on a ruling of a previous judge and then at the same time make a new application that ought to be then if you want to state that the previous case or ruling is still applicable to this court, must be on the same ruling, or a ruling that was made in the previous court, and that was never the case, if that was a belief.  As such then, the prosecution stays with the submission that regarding the SARFU case that The Accused is making a perception of what the situation is and at no stage is basing his apprehension on reasonable facts. As it pleases the court.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:  Does the defence possibly wish to reply?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank you.          Yes, I would like to reply, Judge.
REPLY BY DEFENCE
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: . Judge, the defence has never said there was a formal application. Judge, the acolic;,tion for recusal of documents                for          to be furnished with  documents would not have been repeated before this court because it's the same argument that what his court, terms ofthe present jlidge before us had done, cannot be repeated, so we did not have before Colonel Lüüs a formal application to be furnished with documents, although he had on record . . on his record we had indicated the number of applications that we were going to do, one of which was this question of documents.  It will ... the record will  ShOW that we were going to Move three appli-= ions before Colonel Lu0s, one of which was the application for  documents, ....... ... And with regard to that application ...thereof for documents it was preceded by              of those three applications, .by..an..application for his recusal, and then. 5          when he declined to. recuse himself then he said, in T-Jassinq   therefore, insofar as this anticipated application, which could not have been brought during that day, it was to be.. it had been mentioned because of the lateness of the hour, due to the fact that that application for recusal took that long, that instead of next time around, when we meet we will hear that application, he then directed the prosecution to give us those documents.And we then laboured under the impression that in terms of those directions, in the meanwhile, before the next hearing, in the meanwhile the ... on the word the court's direction, not on a formal application, but an application that was to be brought and it was very late to be brought, that "okay, give them those documents." And had hoped that in the meanwhile we would have those documents.              If we didn't have them, we would then have t-move this formal. application, and when next we met, could not move this formal application before him because...So that therefore made   then that had to come to the new judge coming in, because wh=n Colonel was now with the opportunity that hs would have had to hear himself the application for recus:-._for these documents, and in the light of his previous directions he would have been pressed obviously to .would not have contradicted himself, he would have been pressed to.. maybe... to make an outcome therefore, if -;:e had had to make a formal application, but we didn't do because when next time around the court came together Colonel. LuLis said, "I'm leaving.'
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Yes, he was .
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes         ..........
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                he went on pension, medically unfit.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.        "So I can't hear this matter further."
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Mm.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: So there will be Colonel Venter coming, so anything you want to do, please renew it with the judge coming.  So that's when and then we had to bring this before the new judge.           Now, this was the point of clarification on that issue, because it should not be clouded now because the court has not gone into the ... if the tapes were there, the records were there, most of these things would not have been in dispute.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Otherwise it's my submission that there's no difference in the S4CCAO7U case and the SARFU case and that those are both judgements of the constitutional court and at no point did the constitutional court overrule itself. As the court pleases.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                Thank you, Colonel.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:                FINDING BY THE JUDGE ON APPLICATION FOR RECUSAL
I'm referring here to E = 35 of the NDSMA, it says, and I just cuote what is re'e7ant here, "Any presiding judge who has, or during a trial gained such knowl=:ice concerning the farts of the case to be heard by the court that his decision is likely to be prejudiced thereby,        or            :) bears  accused, or during the tril develops towards any accused such animosity as is likely to prejudice his or ^er decision, shall reCuse himself."  Referring to paragraph (d): "Has„. or_during.   trial gained such knowledge concerning the facts of the case to be heard the court that his decision is likely. –to prejudiced thereby."
This court can state as a fact that yes, I have read the documents submitted by the defence in support of their application, but I repeat again, this must be seen against the background that the defence had actually handed in those documents and must be taken to have given tacit permission for me, and it's in fact my duty, to apply my mind to the application as a whole, which I did, and this includes perusing those documents. And one can also say that where it says, "Such knowledge concerning the facts of the case" is something apart from what one can read in a document such as    a              new       record of a preliminary investigation. This can be taken, these words, "Such knowledge" could be taken to mean, and that's how I understand the law, personal knowledge, not knowledge, which would, if you could be called as a witness, and I have no such knowledge that I could be cal7=d as a witness in any case concerning Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri. (c) "Bears The Accused, or during the trial develops towards The Accused such  animosity as is likelyhis :Drejudice
decision."I can categorically state that I have nothing against The Accused.   I see him as a Likeable person. I'm not prejudiced against hir71, and in all fairness and honesty I see no reason why I should deviate from my original d=ci'or„ that th=re's no reason for me to recuse myself from this case, and I'll also stand by my ruling in connection with the application by the defence to be provided with those documents.   And that's as far can take It today.           as I We can stand down to arrange a suitable. date for this case to proceed, whether with myself sitting here or anybody else. I don't know what the defenCe intends to do, whether .the defence intends to take me on review as a result of my decision, by which I stand. And I Say this in total honesty and with the utmost good intentions of doing my job as I am proud of doing my job, my job, my calling as a judge of this court, okay?
Can I switch off the tape so we can arrange a future date?
(Recording machine was switched off)
 JUDGE PIET RETIEF VENTER:               After all parties concerned consulted their diaries, a decision has been made, and this is the court's ruling at this stage, or order, that this case be postponed until 9 and 10 June 2003 in this same court, court. That is as far as we can take it today.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases.
PROSECUTOR:           As it pleases the court.

26)   (Case is postponed until 9/10 June 2003)

Jacob Zuma (Mr) and some unnamable character