PART-9: 'Human'? IT'S CALLED "'GOODMAN' RIGHTS DAY", MR PRESIDENT!

"Siziwe" a.k.a "Sighs", the self-professed
Nelson Mandela Cousin
who achieved generalcy and other ranking
through adultery/prostitution
with at least one Raymond Lentsoe in Year 2000.
Goodman Manyanya Phiri, according to Mr Jacob Zuma,
must for 11 years now therefore continue to suffer
for blowing the whistle against this relative to a Mandela
that Zuma calls "The Father of The Nation South Africa".
Her official name is
Winnie Ntombizodwa Zini-Bobelo

PART NINE (9)  OF TEN (10)

Dear Mr President Jacob Zuma, Your Excellency

Human rights cannot, as Lindiwe Sisulu's actions are suggesting with her continued unlawful acts against Phiri, mere paper human rights, but they are also rights for Goodman Manyanya Phiri.  If the administration of Your Excellency Zuma (like the pro-Eastern-Cape tribalistic regimes of  Mandela and Mbeki) through Sisulu's roughshod actions, fail to treat me within my rights enshrined in the constitution regarding the kangaroo court she and her fellow Eastern-Cape tribalists (assisted by a few toadying white racists) initiated against me back in 2001 for doing what is right for my land (BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON CORRUPTION)....

...What hope do I have Mr President Zuma that your administration, of all the administrations post-apartheid, will finally repatriate and COMPENSATE my first wife and our children, still illegally banished (since 1994) by the self-same tribe of Lindiwe Sisulu with the particular hand of "Freedom Fighters" Monezi Gchilitshe and Benson Mandindi acting under the orders (implicit) of another Eastern-Caper, Clarennce Mlamli Makwetu?

ON THIS DAY, SOUTH AFRICA'S HUMAN RIGHTS DAY, WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD JOINS SOUTH AFRICANS IN CELEBRATING ONE OF THE MOST GLORIOUS CONSTITUTIONS ON EARTH, I HAVE CHOSEN MR PRESIDENT, TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN LINDIWE SISULU'S KANGAROO COURTS, A 10-YEAR-OLD PROCESS WHICH, FOR BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS AS TO HOW TO FURTHER VICIMIZE PHIRI FOR BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON HER FELLOW THEMBU-TRIBESWOMAN-GENERAL WINNIE NTOMBIZODWA BOBELO-ZINI, SHE HAS RESUMED AS OF LAST THURSDAY THE 17TH MARCH 2011.

THE TWO BIGGEST FLOPS AND UNDOABILITIES ABOUT THIS "TRIAL" ARE.

1.  SISULU'S SO-CALLED EVIDENCE AGAINST PHIRI WAS COLLECTED IN A MANNER THAT FLOUTS FAIR LEGAL PROCEDURES IN THAT SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WERE PUT IN AN A FELLOW-EASTERN-CAPE-BORN MAJOR GENERAL ENOCK MASHOALA'S BOARD OF INQUIRY YET PHIRI WAS NOT CALLED TO CROSS EXAMINE OR OPPOSE THE "WITNESSES" AND THEIR EXPECTORATIONS FOR PRO-SISULU EVIDENCE.  NOR HAS THAT MASHOALA REPORT TO DATE BEEN MADE TO PHIRI DESPITE SEVERAL HIGH-COURT APPEALS BY PHIRI....[(to the reader of this post, Blogger's elucidation on the Mashoala character, please check the yellow highlight to be found here)]....

2.  SISULU IS UNLAWFULLY REFUSING TO PAY COURT FEES FOR PHIRI JUST AS THEY WERE PAID FOR YOUR EXCELLENCY ZUMA IN YOUR "CORRUPTION" TRIAL.  WHERE IS THE EQUALITY ENSHRINED BY "GOODMAN RIGHTS DAY" CONSTITUTION IF ZUMA BY VIRTUE OF MEMBERSHIP TO THE RULING PARTY CAN HAVE STATE PAYMENT OF HIS EXPENSES BUT PHIRI JUST BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER AND WITH NO POLITICAL PARTY TO BACK HIM?

3. LINDIWE SISULU KNOWS VERY WELL THAT SOUTH AFRICA'S CONSTITUTION AND REQUISITE LAWS MAKE IT UNLAWFUL FOR HER TO PROSECUTE PHIRI SEEING THAT I WAS PROSECUTED (AND THERE IS AMPLE PROOF OF MY BLOG AND COURT PAPERS ALL AROUND) BECAUSE OF DARING TO EXPOSE NELSON MANDELA'S COUSIN, BRIGADIER GENERAL BOBELO-ZINI WHO, AS A MAJOR WHEN I BLEW THE WHISTLE, HAD NO RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH THE BEDROOOM WITH AT LEAST ONE COLONEL RAYMOND LENTSOE) AND STILL HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT (EXCEPT THROUGH SISULU'S THEMBU TRIBALISM AND EASTERN-CAPE REGIONALISM) TO REMAIN A BRIGADIER GENERAL OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS AND SHOULD BE PROSECUTED  INSTEAD TOGETHER WITH HER BOYFRIEND LENTSOE... NOT PHIRI

1)     
(COURT RE-OPENS)
COURT CASE OF  : LIEUTENANT COLONEL GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI RESUMES ON 23 March 2004
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         In the matter of the State versus Phiri the time is 18:04 on 23 March 2004. Madam Prosecutor, before we commence with state's case I understand that there is something that you wish to inform the court of?

2)      PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes, Judge, it was brought to my attention this afternoon  that the motion had been filed and that certain court orders were made recarding the case of which my learned colleague can inform you more completely.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         In more detail? Thank you. Colone Simelane?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, as the court pleases. Judge will only from the documents. In due course in further. appearances we'll r skz copies of these documents so that they can be filed on .record.  Well, for the purpose of my address then I will refer to the only copies that we ha.,e we still have to purchase more.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Please continue:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. Judge, there's been a lot of dramatic events this morning in the member working with the legal team at the High Court to move an urgent application wherein we seek certain relief. The long and short of it is that this late afternoon certain orders were granted by a judge of the High Court.

3)      MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Which judge would that have been?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It doesn't appear on the record but I believe it's Judge Claassen.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Indeed?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Claassen,  J. The relief sort in terms of ... the motion reads: Kindly take notice that the abovementioned applicant, that is Colonel Phiri intends to bring an urgent application to the above honourable court on 23 March, which is today, at 14:00 or soon thereafter as counsel Maybe heard for an order in the following terms. The first order is that that the forms and service provided for in terms of the rules of the above honourable court be dispensed with insofar as maybe necessary and the application be heard as one of urgency in terms of the uniform rules, Rule 6 to 12. The application was heard on that basis, this relief is not mentioned but it ... the application was heard on the basis of the Rule 6(1)(12). Now, the second relief. the second order is :0 mentioned here as granted. The second order reads, that the hearing in the departmental judges court, Ref Nc. , Lieutenant Colon G.M. Phiri be stayed pending the orders ... (unclear) ... for under ... (unclear) ... 3 and 4, this order is granted. Now, Order 3, Order 3 reads "Applicant's order" ... an order declaring that the applicant, that is Colonel Phiri is entited to have access to documents, and/or information held by the first respondent, the Mir seer of Defence is the first respondent. Alternatively fifth respondent, the fifth respondent is Major H S Pretorius, the Information Officer. Alternatively fifth respondent, in the applicant exercising or protecting his richt in a trial pending in the departmental court, this order is :ranted, Order 2. The Orde7 No, 3. Order No. 4, that the first respondent, .the Minister.of. Defence, alternatvely fifth respdndent, that Information Officer Major Pretorius',-- be ordered and directed to furnish applicant, Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri  with the following documents, namely (a) South African Army Inspector General's Report involving Pn:ri er and others at the South African Army-College. February...
(End of tape 3)
(Transcription continues on tape 4)

BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... to March 2001. (b) the commander's investigation report as ordered by acting commandant of the South African Army College, Mr Eduard Frans Drost, to look into complaints against Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri, March 2001. (c) The ... (unclear) ... intervention report (Intervention at the South African Army College, January to February 2001 by the British Military Advisors to South African National Defence Force within seven days of the date of the court order, this order is under 4, which I've read, have been granted as ordered. Order 5 is not mentioned there in the orders granted. 5 was granting the applicant such further alternative relief as this court deems fit. The 6th order, and the final order, this order was granted, ordering that the first respondent,- that is the Minister of Defence pays the costs of this application. These are the orders they have granted by the High Court, and as I understand them is that, especially the Order 2 that the hearing in the departmental judges court, in reference ,  Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Phiri be stayed pending the orders paid for under triad 3 and 4. It would appear to me therefore that the High Court has stopped these proceedings until such time that the documents are supplied to Phiri, and that we can then resume these proceedings. And subject to the input of the court and my learned friend I understand the word "stay" and ... (uric:ear) ... effect from the time the High Court delivered the order that these proceedings naVe stopped, and that any issue relating to taking these proceedings forward would be discussed when the papers as ordered have been furnished to the applicant in the High Court, and Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri before this cc i_irt and that once that has happened we can then look to the modalities of taking the matter forward.  that is how I read Judge Classei:' orders and if my learned friend concurs and the court agrees then the court should declare these proceedings as stayed as ordered by the High Court. These are my submissions, unless the count would like to hear me on any other matter pertaining to these orders I wili be pleased to address the court ... (unclear)
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: order-itself?  Could I ask her, has the prosecuticn had insight into the
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge, yes, I did see the order, it refers to .. (unciear), as mentioned by Colonel Simelane, Defence Counsel. I ha: Je not read the entire notice  of enrolment; just this specific ... (unclear) ... that were granted by the 35               court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I'm specifically referring to the order itself.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   The order I have read, Sir.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right. Is there anything that you wish to comment upon, or address the court on in respect of the orders?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Nothing, other than just for completeness sake, it's probably not relevant but there is an additional paragraph referring to the contents of the documents which Colonel Phiri seeks, and I think just for completeness it should be mentioned to the court. Perhaps Colonel Simelane could just ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I actually just have sight of the document itself, the court order, May I peruse that, it will be ... then you can have it back and copies are going to be supplied to the prosecution at a later stage then, tomorrow morning Maybe?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, ... yeah, in fact we would like to have this document: the notice of motion and the court order forming part of the record.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Absolutely.  It's just that they should be marked accordingly Exhibit so and so, and so and be intearal to the record of this court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         May I just have a look at them before we actually assign them specific numbers? Thank you. The paragraph that the prosecution refers to. I understand then will be paragraph 2 of the order? The order wants (unclear) ... 2, 3, 4 and 6 of the Notice of Motion and then in paragraph 2 it says. It is further ordered that if the respondents 1-6, in specific I think respondents 1 and 5 that you mentioned having access, or holding the information in custody, if the respondents wish to withhold any of the information or documentation sought that such be specified to the applicant, and the respondent shall, at the commencement of the hearing: prove special grounds why the material should not be furnished to the applicant." Am ... my understandng is that the order is now made for the release of the documentation provided for in the Notice OT Motion and that if Chief of the Defence Force or the Information Officer you 'referred to, if they wish to withhold any of those- documents, then at the commencement of the hearing the defence. that is to say The Accused Colonel Phiri would have to show special grounds why that material ... no sorry, the 'respondent shall ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         prove special grounds why that material shall not be furnished to the applicant. In other words, Chief of the Defence Force and/or the Information Officer would have to come and explain why they are not going to  provide that. Do I understand it correct? And when it says "of the hearing" refers to this court, is my understanding of that correct as well?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   That is the way I understand it, Judge.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, I understand it the High Court ... (unclear) ... MY instructions are that, Judge, any opposition to this order ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... will be done at the High Court. In other words they will have to convince the High Court as to why those special grounds they are putting ... it appears to ... it's a little bit, the wording, the recommencement, Judge, as I understand it now, the recommencement of these proceedings mean the documents haven't been furnished . (unclear) ... seven days and they say the documents are furnished. Now, if there are certain special, or grounds which they want to specify that certain portions of the documents May not be made available, they will do so in writing specifying those grounds, and those grounds will be then taken to the court that made this order, to look at those grounds to be able to come to a decision whether those grounds suffloe for the exclusion of these records or not. To me that makes sense, of course, because if the court makes an order along these lines then it obviously means it has ... and it has allowed the possibility of submissions, that they can consider those submissions itself to see whether those subm'issions held or not.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... Yeah.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Comment from the prosecution?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge, it seems at this stage to be amblouous, and all prosecution can say is who knOws?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Do ... would you agree ... it is ambiguous as I read it because I understood the wording "the. hearing" to be referring to this court ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes, I:also understood'.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... not ...
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   ... it like that.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         not as if ... I unzerstand your araiment it is ceriafnly an order made by the High Court, and should anybody Or any institution wish not to execute that order then certainly an argument can be made out that it should then again be explained to the institution, the High Court who made the order. That is certainly a very logic argument that you have posed there, it does, however, not take ... it's ... the logic of it does not, however, override the wording which allows for the possibility as it stands there for such an explanation then to  be afforded to this court which leaves me a bit in the lurch here.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. You know, one should read the recommencement, read the recommencement in conjunction with the specified time, the seven  days. The lapse of the seven days within which the documents must be furnished means these proceedings May recommence because if those documents are furnished to the satisfaction of the applicant, of Colonel Phiri it means the other court has nothing more to do, it means this matter can recommence and proceed.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Correct.
Yes. Now, if the order is not being fully complied with on the basis that now recommencement has come but the order is not being complied with, yeah, then it starts to get clearer, and the orde- is not complied with, and if the order is not complied with then of course if it's gong to be content then the court ... previous court ... High Court will deal with the issue of content because it ... it's on order, but if there's an explanation :rat in certain portions are not being provided for these reasons, then the same High Court must look into those reasons to satisfy itself this is not contempt, these are good reasons. can I ... ynH know ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I fully a...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: but this is at the recommencement of these proceedings because at that time we are now ready to recommence, and the seven days . has lapsed and the documents ... (uncles-", ... order are there. available, but now ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:-       May I just have that order again pease?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                Yes:. .. (unclear)._ a little nebulous ... (unclear) to to those specifics. but the Engl1shis quite clear if you look it in the context or (unclear)          issues. Yeah, there's another good point v,:n..ch, in my view, the member who is accused here is making ...the legal department this afternoon when the matter was to be heard before the  High Court heard the matter that there is a resistance, so this order ... the court  has the mind that the ... perhaps the respondents still want to oppose this matter
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... these orders.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, and therefore at the end of the seven days the recommencement therefore would be if the matter is being opposed. In other words the respondents are going to look at this order and they May then form their minds there ... there are indications that they want to resist this, and therefore that resistance will be heard by that court, the basis upon which they want to resist the order. So the hearing at recommencement therefore its at the High Court when they also want to say they May not be complying ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... then there are those indications, but I guess they're taking instructions in the ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I think to put the matter beyond the pale ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... it would be prudent for this court to determine exactly, or to have someone determine exactly what is meant by the High Count. The argument forwarded by the defence makes 100% sense to me, it h. to my mind, however, still is not clearly stipulated in this draft order, as was signed here by the Registrar, and what I'm then going to do is I'm golrd to have the matter stand down for this paragraph 2 to be clarified, and if needs be if the wording for it to be altered such as to read that "if the respondent, CT respondents in this matter wish to withhold any of the information that be spe:Thd tc the applicant, and that the respondent shall before this court, that is t: say the High Court, supply reasons, or special grounds why not to be furnishei. Then it is crystal 30 clear, .because as it stands I think if the prosecution's         they say thathit. Is ambiguous and certainly on the wording, "recommencement.pfthe                -it -  leaves the possibility that I'm not comfortable with. It weu v, for instance imply that this court would have to reconsider a decision already. made by this court. but that the onus has now shifted to the state on argumehts -that have already beeh heard by this court which certainly supports the coh:ention that it should rather be the High Court. In order for this matter then to be clarified, I think it is prudent for this court to have this matter stand down, it's a matter that can easily be rectified, no arguments need to be made, I think the Registrar must just determine, or specify exactly what is meant the recommence of the hearing, and for that purpose can this matter stand down until tomorrow afternoon 14:00 just so that we can determine this one issue and then decide the matter forward. I think there is no question about whether we shall proceed with the state's case, that is clear. I think what we need to determine here is what if the state is not going to provide the documentation, before who they must supply these special grounds, and that's the one aspect, and the second aspect is then we have to determine a date, because I'm not going to postpone the matter as sine deg(?), but we will then look at a date that gives sufficient allowance for the respondent, or the state rather, then to make the decisions about the documentations, reply to the defence and for the defence to prepare their further conduct, based on those documents.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Are we on record, Judge?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes, we are.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. Yes ... oh! It's good then if we are on record. We should also be mindful of this order 2 that these proceedings are ... (unclear)  the word used             they are stayed ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Stayed. Yes ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: They are stayed.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That's what I said, the matter is to be postponed ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... until such time as you have your ... the documentation.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ,..
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Or otherwise.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, because if we keep making short postponements like tomorrow or the oter.day, we are proceeding thIS we are, in fact, in contempt of the High Courrorder, becarse if tre orders says the proceedings are stayed .„ are stayed, then its notarnbiguc_s, the proceed ngs are stayed. We shouldn't try to proceed in contravention of :re High Court crder ... (unclear) ... because ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Well, the court order is not clear.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... (unclear) ... in our ... if the proceedings are stayed, they are stayed, and after seven days ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Mm?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... things will be clear one other way that the documents are there, or in whatever way they are met in whatever terms, then the court has the basis then to say "I need clarity" to the High Court, how do I proceed, because we're like going it into the dark before this period expired. When the period expires and they should have complied they May as well make a full compliance, they May well oppose completely, decide to go back to the High Court on full force whatever and say "look, we ... in fact we are opposing this order." Because if we talk about seven days, within seven days ... remember it was an urgent application, it is in the form of a ... (unclear) ... yes, the ... (unclear) ... will be saying the order becomes permanent at a given time, so there's an indication of seven days when this order will be permanent. In other words it came on the basis of an urgent application, an order is made and ... (unclear) ... therefore mean on the return day, on the ret..:rn day the order can be made permanent, the order can be discharged either way. It means on the return day the party can come and seek to discharge the order, in this case we are talking of no order here, if the return day order is discharged. If, after that seven days this is complied with, and they are not opposin: then they mjst fully comply with this order then this order becomes permanent. This is the, I understand the time limit, the urgency, the urgency culminated of course it's a ... (unclear) ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Now you see that is ... that puts a bifferent slant on the matter that you did not provide to the court before.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. No, no, yeah, now it happens ... it occurs to me, Judge, when I read within seven days, then it says sometnng important right? Then If I put it together that this is not ... this is an intet.-1 relief. This is an interim relief, it's ... (unclear) ... if it's a ... (unclear) ... it's s_oect to be opposed, it's subject to be permanent. Ifit's. going to be opposed then it be. discharged, if it's not.op.posed-it becomes permanent. So it means obviously it is a matter of going back to the High Court to  confirm this orde- make it permanent or to discharge it and make it an order discharged, where .ion we're back to square one.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         'So the matter is set down next week sometime for The return date of the rule nisi?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah,     ja, ... yes, it would appear so, that after seven days the instructing attorney in this matter will then seek confirmation, have they  complied, have they not complied? And have they in meantime certified opposing papers and things in which they want to oppose this paper? In other words the matter will then go back to be determined. In either way the matter will have to be finalised by the High Court because the High Court will have to say this order is final, or this order is discharged, or depending on what these people are going to do ... (unclear) ... if they comply partially the instructing attorney will concede that with counsel and be able to say that "your order, Judge, has not been complied with, the explanation, in our view is challengeable" the court will consider that, but the court must make a certain word it's a rule nisi.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right. Then I ... I hear what you're saying ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... I hear your argument. Is there anything that the prosecution wishes to add?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   No, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         With all due respect to the High Court, I ... this is the"")0 only page of the order. Is that correct?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: of seven days?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes, that's what I've been furnished with, yes.
I understand your notice informatich contains the period
Yes.
And that the order referred to here as ... (unclear) ... 2, for the matter to stand down and for the state to have seven. days within which to comply for the ... with the documentation contained the seven day reference. As I said, with all due respect to the High Court the draft orCer should then ...in clarities, for perfect clarity then have read something to he effect that the respondents are hereby ordered to supply to the applicant the do.c.umen.ts ieferred to in the motion; and have seven days within which to either show. cause '- why such should not be provided, that would have put, as I've said, the mat...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, yeah, you ... (unclear) ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... the matter totally beyond the pale.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ja, it would have been much clearer. You know, this I also just get from the papers here ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yeah.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... that time is specified then it was specified for some reason within which this to comply. And ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         It would seem that the order itself ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... that is being sought May not have been constructed in
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Mm.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... the terminology one would prefer it to have been so that one could clearly see that yes, this is a rule nisi order, but ... all right. I understand your argument. I have no problem in postponing the matter, the order by the court is clear, the matter is to be stayed and yes, against the background and in the context thereof that there is a seven day period set after which the respondent would have had to comply, or supply the reasons, I am  quite willing to have this matter stand down and we then have to determine a date that would suit the circumstances as well as all the parties and the court.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   If I May come in here, Sir, Colonel Johannes Hendrik Beyers Kleynhans, the final  prosecution witness has indicated to me that he will be leaving the Republic again at the end of the week ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Mm.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   ... and will return to the Republic on 10 May for approximately three weeks, if that gives us any indication.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah. No, I think, Judge, what we have to to now we've got to work in con... in compliance with the High Court. You know, what my learned friend is talking about now, it's when we want to resume that kind of information would be relevant when we want to fix a date to resume. I think, Judge, if you agree and my learned friend is that we Should rather ook at a date after the seven days, look at a date after the seven days v.'hen, in terms of this order, any other thing would have been done, and.then the me.mber.will then go  to his instructing attorney after seven days. to. look. into the' question as to compliance, are the documents there and then they will :hen ac to the High  Court to make a final order. And then when that has ha:oened. Presumably.  When we meet again we will get that report to say the High Court has finally dealt  with the matter, the question of documents has been deal: with effectively, we have the documents and then discuss what my learned friend is saying as to the availability of the next witness ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: and to be able to postpone with that in mind. I think at the moment we should postpone taking the seven days into consideration, give it  Maybe two to three weeks when we'll come back and say what is the status of the matter and then we take it up from there, because by that time ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right.               I repeat that I will not have a matter be postponed pending some or other unforeseen unknown date. I will choose a date upon which if this compliance by the applicants ... or rather the respondents to the motion has been sorted out, or not, and if not and the matter is still pending a decision by the High Court, at that day we will the obviously not be able to resume and the matter shall then stand again to a certain future set date, but yes, we will keep in mind that there are certain time-scales involved in any High Court matter, and also we have to accommodate the availability of this witness. Now, you say that on 10 May he returns to the Republic for the period of three weeks?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         So that he will be leaving by 28 May again?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes, Judge. Judge, I also just wish :: place it on record that I have my doubts as to the cost effectiveness of hay   everybody come back to court after 10 days., after two weeks  cetera and r— wondering at this  stage whether it wouldn't be prudent to postpone the matter to a date in May  when that witness is available, and should that date not  defence counsel because of pending High Court's actions then obviously it        negotiable at that stage. It is prosecution's suggestion at this stage. As the           pleases.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes, I ... call me a formalist, I would refer for all of us to  sit around and look each ether in the eye and decide upon a date rather than having the matter postponed over the telephone, if that car ::e avoided at all costs then I think that would. suit my style better.- All right Given my own scheduling might we look at as late a 'date in May 'as possible, :he week of 24-28 May, preferably 25, 25 May?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   I am available, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Defence?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Let me just look at my book of word he-e. 25 inlay?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we could have ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Let set the two days down ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We don't know ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... 25 and 26.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: 26?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That again gives two months from today so that non-compliance or compliance the matter can either be served before the High Court  again or the defence May prepare with what has been provided to them. Would that suit you? 25, 26 May. The assessors will be available, I myself will be  available. Right, Colonel Phiri,
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yes, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... we will meet again then on 25 May. If ... there is always the possibility of course that should, for some or other reason the matter cannot proceed on that day that you cannot, of course, appear before any departmental judge for that matter for a further postponement, so ... but that it shall be a formal postponement if that is the case, the matter will not just be administratively dealt with and we will over the phone continue to tell each other to continue another date. So I will be here on 26 25, 23 and we will continue, or if the matter has to stand down to another date that we all agree upon it wiH probably be before another departmental judge from the Pretoria area so that 1 need not come down only for a postponement. Do you understand?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank you, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Anything else? Prosecution?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   No, Judge, as the court pleases.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Defence?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, ... (unclear) ... , Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         If that  court order by the High Court and the motion could then just be made available tomorrow I am still in Pretoria for another two  days on another matter and then that can be incorporated into the record:.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:.                Yes, what do we call this exhibit?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Unfortunately I have not ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Not ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... looked at the previous number and I don't have it right
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, we could have ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Let set the two days down ...
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We don't know ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... 25 and 26.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: 26?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That again gives two months from today so that non- compliance or compliance the matter can either be served before the High Court  again or the defence May prepare with what has been provided to them. Would that suit you? 25, 26 May. The assessors will be available, I myself will be available. Right, Colonel Phiri,
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yes, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... we will meet again then on 25 May. If ... there is always the possibility of course that should, for some or other reason the matter cannot proceed on that day that you cannot, of course, appear before any departmental judge for that matter for a further postponement, so ... but that it shall be a formal postponement if that is the case, the matter will not just be administratively dealt with and we will over the phone continue to tell each other to continue another date. So I will be here on 26 ... 25, 23 and we will continue, or if the matter has to stand down to another date that we all agree upon it will probably be before another departmental judge from the Pretoria area so that I need not come down only for a postponement. Do yod understand?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank you, Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Anything else? Prosecution?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   No, Judge, as the court pleases.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Defence?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No, ... (unclear) ... , Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         If that court order by the High Court and the motion could then just be made available tomorrow I am still in Fretoria for another two 30 days on another matter and then that can be incorporated :nto the record:. . Yes, what do we call this exhibit? Unfortunately I have not ... Not .... looked at the previous number F.-id I don't have it right
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Okay, we'll sort out at the next hearing ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         ... we'll mark ... I will mark it in due course. A PA)c.=-'ec--(bc-c-:-.7
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... as to what the actual ... you'll inform us then (unclear) ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I will inform you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes ...
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Obviously.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: ... what it is.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you, the time now is 18:44, the tape is to be stopped. Thank you, Colonel, you're excused, you May withdraw.

4)      (CASE IS POSTPONED UNTIL 25 May 2004)
CASE RESUMES ON THE 25TH OF May 2004

5)      MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         (unclear) by the Prosecutor.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Thank you Judge. The Accused before court is 98007696 PE Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri of the South African Army College (in Pretoria). The matter is partly heard in front of Colonel Venter (unclear) as in court today. I was instructed today and that apparently Captain Magaza will take over the Prosecution of the matter before court, and that we still are (unclear) trying to get hold of all the documents as required by the High Court order. Which was obtained and which helped with the proceedings at that stage. So the State wishes a remand until the 6th July 2004, and this will be the last date a set date for postponement. If the State hasn't been able to gather all the documents as required on that day we will postpone the matter to (unclear) but hopefully the State will have all the documents will have handed it over to my leaned colleague and on the 6th of July will be in the position either Captain Magaza once again myself to do the matter (unclear) to finalise this trial with Colonel Venter, as the court pleases.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Right so on the 6th of July it will not be for trial?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   No.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         It will only determine another date for further trial in the 6th of July?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes Judge this is just to ensure that we've got all the documents as the High Court order prescribed.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         What is the problem?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge I understand that the d::uments need to be gathered by the adjutant at the South African Army College (in Pretoria) as far as I know. I don't know why they are struggling so much with that it might be :ecause of numerals changes of command. I know that you will be (unclear) a: one stage was a the commandant there was General Nkonyeni I think and Colonel (unclear) was sitting in as the acting commandant it might be because a' That I'm not sure. It is something that which is not being handled by the Frosec_:.on Section at all. Its been done by, by the unit at unit level as far as I know.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:..Yes, but please tell the Senior :-:-osecution Counsel, Lieutenant Colonel Slobber to assist the adjutants of that unit to get all the necessary documentation. All right?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   I'll do so.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you. Mr Defence counsel an.thing from you r side?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No nothing more from what my leaned friend has said. Just to emphasize that the High Court order is clear on two issues. One that these documents must be made available to, to the member who for him to  prepare for his defence.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         And all those documentation must be submitted through to The Accused.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. just to also clear in the second point that the proceedings of the Departmental court are to be stated until such time that these documents are made available and the trial proceeds. And we had hoped that today and if the documents are not available is it postponed cynically, because the Defence is of the view that if we persist on postponing this matters to (unclear) we are in fact contravening, we are in contact with that High Court order (unclear) The Accused has to be (unclear) and has to be formally before court, and that is for that reason that we have insisted on a postponement seeing that the okay on discussions with the Prosecution today we've agreed that if those documents as my learned friend had said 27e not available by the next date the 6" of July, when we postpone on that date we will do it (unclear) on the (unclear) a matter when the documents are available. The Prosecution will then reinstate the matter with contact of you by the interested within the matter that the matter is coming back to court. It is all for all these reasons convenience continence and think and also obviously to :amply with the High Court order.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes of cause I really hope that these will be no problem to obtain these documentation. Madam Prosecutor I again instruct you to convey to the Senior Prosecution Counsel that he must assist the adjutant of that unit or the Commanding Officer of that unit to get hold of these cco.umentation before the 6th of July.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   ! will do so Judge. Thank you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank-yod Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Colonel anything from your side?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Nothing Judge thank you.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Anything from the (unclear) side?
MAN'S VOICE:           Only to say that (unclear).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Colonel for the record what happene:?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: What happened there was (unclear) court appearance we given the dates 25th and 26th (unclear) and the effort (unclear). So the two of us left together by 8:30 we were already at the office only to find that if (unclear). We were assisted by (unclear) who called here or he called (unclear) or whoever he consider (unclear) on the Colonel (unclear) and then his the one who has advices us that it is going to be postponed from court (unclear) but would have appreciated if we are told on time.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         So you were also not aware of the fact that this will only be postponed?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: We were not aware of anything Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Madam Prosecutor (unclear) on that?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge as far as I know the State will not directly contact the assessors due to the fact that we are on the (unclear). We would not wish to speak to the assessors and (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:.       What about the court manager?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   The court manager Judge I have no idea why he perhaps did not inform the assessors himself. He specifically phoned me and requested that I just get their contact details to probably prevent that in future it might be the reason why he was unable to do so previously.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Colonel did I they have your contact with them?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Every time I was in contact with (unclear) our contact details at first they used to both fax and call me but this time nothing happened.

\MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: Yeah, Madam Prosecutor yoU never do or not prosecute in this matter and you will also not do the prosecution in this matter because it is acceptable that The Accused was not informed about the changes (unclear). And I will personally (unclear) PI (unclear) but in future I will first (unclear) call and (unclear).
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge I will make sure that the court finds that,
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         The case is being postponed until 6: July 2004 would it be in this court or in court C Madam Prosecutor?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge I have not been told which could it will 'be in but because is only going to be postponement at that day we'd rather do. it in this  court and then when Colonel Ven:er has given us an indication we will be able to decide on which court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Will you be available on that day Colonel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes Ma'am.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         And you too Colonel.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I will be available.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         It will only (unclear) before or ha'f an hour or so it is not for (unclear). The case is been postponed until 6th July 9:00 in the morning you here in this court Colonel. Mr court orderly just insure in the imaginary, I have been insured and (unclear).

POSTPONED TO THE 6TH July 2004

CASE RESUMES ON THE 6TH OF July 2004

MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Madam Prosecutor.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Thank you Judge. The Accused before court is 98007693 PE Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri of Defence Intell'gence the matter was postponed on the 21st of May due today in order to confirm whether the document as ordered by the High Court have in fact been handed over. I can confirm to this court that has been indeed done so the Prosecution confirmed with (unclear) that it has been done. We requested s...oh documentation in writing so that we can give something to the court to Say tnat we complied with the High court order and this morning before I left the off':e such letter has not yet been received from (uncltait) but the State can confirm :o the court that it has all being handed over (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         When has it been handed over?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge I'm not certain of the date between Colonel (unclear) and General (unclear) they insured that it was handed over that's why we requested it in writing just to make sure that we have tne and so forth. I also understand that the presiding Judge in the case Colonel (unclear) will be in time next week from Bloomfontein to prosecute the or to presce over the probable homicide cases (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That's where it's going (uncleaq.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   And the State will therefore request a postponement to next week so that we can set the date (unclear) for trial be:E.,use as it has been said we have complied with the High court order. Thank you _
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you. Mr. Defence Counsel co. you confirm have you received all the documentation?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  No Ma'am new news to me what learned friend (unclear) in the honour of court (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         The documentation, which the High court ordered, you have not received that yet?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: No has not received anything.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Nothing at all?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Nothing at all is just that they have (unclear) State attorney and the instructing attorney are trying to determine to resolve between  themselves as to this documents and identify this documents. It is in the process of finding the documents. The documents have not been furnished and it has been pointed out to the that, it's documents have not been furnished and we still waiting for the documents and up to yesterday I was in contact with the instructing attorney he even faxed me a letter which he had (unclear) to the State attorney pointing out the documents in terms of the (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Do you have that letter here with you?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes I've got the letter ma'am. The, what my learned friend has been talking about it is (unclear) correspondence. That correspondence is also available where certain Colonel (unclear) did write to (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Lieutenant Colonel Lekutsiye.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Lekutsiye?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Lekutsiye did write to Colonel (unclear) and these documents were send to the State attorney, I also made a copy available for my learned friend.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Mr. court orderly, Mr. Court orderly just hand a.'er the documents to the Prosecutor.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: These are all the documents that you have in generated.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         (unclear) let me just see where is the date on it.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: But the very last letter is at the end Ma'am.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That is the one you received yesterday?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The one, the one was faxed to me.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Madam Prosecutor according to you who submitted the Defence Counsel the documentation, do you perhaPs know?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   I have no idea unfortunately I don't know. I know that between Lieutenant Colonel Lekutsiye and the General (unclear) they were instructed to see to it that the right court order was complied with.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   As far as the instructions are they have complied with the High court order, (unclear) now additional documents which are required but that does not fall within the end of the High court order and therefore the (intervenes)
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Okay but according to the Defence Counsel he has not received anything, is that so Mr. Defence Counsel?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Nothing whatsoever Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Nothing whatsoever since the High court may (unclear).
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I remember some time ago I think a week after the High court order was made that I had contact with General (unclear) who asked to speak to me as I was going down the passage he send somebody when he saw me to say I'd like to speak to Colonel Semelane. I went to Colonel Segomotso Bailey Mmono Colonel (unclear) he was around there he had seen me with Colonel Mono. Colonel Segomotso Bailey Mmono raised the question of document and the that he would like to found out from me about documents. I said to Colonel Segomotso Bailey Mmono one there's an instructing attorney dealing with the matter and (unclear) is in contact with the State attorney on your behalf and I will not get involved unless \,,iou are giving me the documents which I required then he said okay he will thereafter deal with the matter on that basis, that he will give the ins:ructions on the matter to the State attorney. The State attorney will deal with the instructing attorney and the documents are available, the State attorney will give General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  the documents and when his got the documents he will tell Colonel Semeiane to come and fetch the documents.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         And you have not received any?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: That-was (unclear) with Colonel IV ono, he ha-sn't called me (unclear) Judac. The last contact I had with Mono was. with General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  was.on this time. only .whe.n. he agreed on how the document will come to .the position of the Defence Counsel in the matter and Colonel to date has not come to Defence Counsel with a piece of a paper to Say This an attempt to comply with the court order so really (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Has Mr. Mosiza also has not received anything according to you.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes even the Mr. Mosiza had not received anything Judge as I indicate to the Judge that as late as yesterday 4:30, 4:45 I was in contact with him over the phone (unclear). The documents are not there and the in fact at this time he was going to fax me prove that the State attorney has this letter, he was going to fax me prove unfortunately the registry, people (unclear) to our registry knock at 4:00 and they go and for some reason the fax was not able to go through until I left. This morning I was talking to Corporal Bantu finding out what is the position with the fax machine; after they lock do they switch it off or what.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         No it's not switched off.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes definitely is not switched off. When I said to him but why late yesterday I was going faxed and things were no: going through. I even went to one of my colleagues he is in the office next to Captain (unclear) asked him do we have any alternative faxes because there is something that is been faxed to me and I'm told 5372 is not receiving it and then he said to me to my knowledge this is the only number we have.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right, Madam Prosecutor you cannot submit the court of with any clue that the documents were indeed hander over to the Defence  Counsel, is that correct?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Judge I have just this letter frcr Colonel Lekutsiye which indicates which Judge also has a copy of date: 1st June 04 which indicates that there was no report as requested so there .'as nothing that we could furnished them with that the report was furnished but there were statements recorded (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         What reports are you referring to nc.v?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   The Inspector General reports regarding the (uncles-) just raised cy The Accused. This is now Colonel Lekutsiye's letter which .vas aHdresse,d for attention General Segomotso Bailey Mmono . Judge I believe the best wayto.resfve this would be to bring thiS Matter before Colonel (unclear) next week and I -aVe General Mbino and (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes I also have that in mind that General ,,ilono come and explain what he did because according to you Lieutenant Cblorel Lekutsiye. and General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  confirmed that they indeed faxed to the Defence COunsel.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF: That's why is it possible there was nothing in writing to and over and then it is impossible to hand over that's probably the in pass where the State attorney had to intervene or come to some sort of negotiating agreement with Colonel Semelane's office with by way of Mr. Mosiza so I believe that this should be resolved next week.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Unfortunately Colonel (unclear) is here next week his got an important matter; yes do you want to say something Colonel (unclear).
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Yeah, just to qualify my Defence Counsel will correct me if  I'm going astray but I'm the one who instructed Mr. Mosiza to get the documents here in the High court and I want that High court order that I must be granted those documents. Their the board of inquiry report compiled by General Mshwala on the base of which I'm facing the charges today.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         And Colonel (unclear) would be the last one not to accept that even the witnesses for the State already are leaded to that board of inquiry board. I think I must tell the Judge that, that's aso for lack of a better word a plated (unclear) there's nothing was written. I actually worked into Colonel Whites office it was the tail end of that Colonel Mashoala's investigation at the college and. the Colonel told me she was one of the inspectors, he told me that she was printing the report and I actually saw the retort being printed after their investigation of that going so at the college which was sub w7itten. Besides even that writing that Madam Prosecutor has got in fr:nt of her does make mention that Colonel rviashwala on arrival at the college 7equestei-j that military students submit written material to him which was judida. that is what I need because its on the base of those allegation that were written that I'm being charged, that's what the High court order wants and I do-'t have a scheme of that paper so that is one nothing has been no even a word not a (unclear) on the board of inquiry. On the selection board minutes or where the E matter was involved nothing whatsoever except signatures who was the sec-etary Out the minutes are not there and they are the issue again.that are in .stake according to the charges that I'm facing so they are hot giving that as iivel They claim that no minutes were taken, I'm not accepting thati
ACCUSED. It is in the writing that the Madam Prosecutor (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Are you also (unclear) to these charges dated 1st June
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Ja is part of that of that, come Madam Judge again.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Are you also in position of this letter dated the 1st of  June this year?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         The one that's in front of the Judge?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I'm the one who gave to it to Colonel (unclear) yesterday after I have given instructions to my to Mr. Mosiza so I just want to confirm one more thing (unclear) leave my Defence Counsel the only document I've received so far out of the three or four that I requested was the commanders investigation be conducted by Colonel (unclear) that is (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:  receive it.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         And when did you receive that? That was received, well after the court orders but I did After, after the High court order? Yes but it was later, late but that's the only one, hence then I instructed to Mosiza to ask for the board inquiry which up to this point nothing has been given and the other one also involvind the (unclear) and the selection board again not shared with the minutes, what :s even strange is that the title with document which they actually truncated f:adam Judge it is the document that it is entitled minutes for the selection board on the 3r. of January but the minutes are not there it only have the signature o: the secretary and the minutes are not there and that's why I instructed Mr. r:osiza to ask for the minutes because they are an issue in the trial in the allegations against me that is not been given either.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right, I'm going to postpone this matter until next week when Colonel Venter is here and then you can address him again on this and yes Madam Prosecutor I waa you to have the witnesses here in couTt we will then look at the Generar.MonO.' I. don't think Colonel Lekutsiye will be necessary but General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  definitely must be here to address Colonel Venter on this aspects and then Colonel Venter will deo:de until when this case V. be postponed so is that is not for me to decide at this stage.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:  May the court pleases, there's also on the report this matter was also made known to this court even before the trial we received the letter from the Ministers officer that the whole incident of for, the incident at ARMY college was investigated and one would image that the Minister would then (unclear) need any report arising from those investigation and it was pointed out to the court that, that report would be, the Minister report would be relevant.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Is it one of the documents the High  court ordered, is it one of the documents entailed in the High court order?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Well the High court order that to do with the documents as The Accused required to prepare for his Defence.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes but this investigation is just referred to Colonel is it one of the documents the High court ordered the Prosecutor to give to The Accused.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Well by implication if the order says the relevant documents and the court has been informed of that report as a relevant document because even this document if you want in those investigations of the Minister (unclear) report we would have had all tne copies whatever investigations were done by whatever organs of the department and if (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I understand to what you are say'ng but still it is for Colonel Venter to decide on that, I just want to confirm the assessors when will you be available next year?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         (unclear).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Okay I don't think it is necessary for        to be here it will only be a postponement agar:. Will you be able to be nere (L.nclean. Mr. Defence Counsel you availability'. next week?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes I'm trying to find out the relevant dates.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Madam Prosecutor are you available anytime?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:.  .(unclear) course for the whole week just            to make. sure (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes but the postponements will be early in the morning.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Ja plus 1 if call during the morning ore of the witnesses it might take a 'bit longer so. I v ll just determine which. dates so my 'learned colleague is 'available probably between, I just figured be may be for the late (unclear) in the day before Colonel Venter, so that we can rather run into later in the night than because I'm (unclear) like this.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: the airport.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Oh next week in the (unclear). Okay we last appeared at that court where we were at No it will be here in this court. Yes I don't say we, I'm just (unclear) in terms of time because the Colonel Venter (unclear) to come in the evening when your programmes should be over and you rather (unclear) commitments if this is what 10         to consider.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Do you want to do this after hours then start with the (unclear)?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Oh what we can do, maybe, Judge is come together on the Monday morning and then just decide whether is going to be Tuesday 3:00 or Wednesday 6:00 at night and then just schedule General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  for that one because obviously Colonel Venter is also bind by when his (unclear) homicide cases plus the two other Judges.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes then those witnesses are available I think it's a good question.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge may I come in Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge I will like to make a request I have not talked to my Defence Counsel about this but I would like to make a request that I should reproach the High court. Colonel Venter has looked into this matter in the past 25              and (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes but Colonel Venter is the presiding Judge.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Can I finish my statement Judge wit- due respect%
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes Colonel I know that you requested  to approach the High cowrt again but this case cannot stand over until then. i               this case to be in front of Colonel Venter next week while he will be here.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge, may I pleas& say what I need to say you haven't heard me.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         You must be very careful now Cocniel because will hold you in contempt.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge I want to say something (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Do you understand me?
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge Vinter has looked in it and has dismissed it.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Seat down please Mr. Defence Counsel.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Why must you forced me when he  has already dismissed it Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I want him to hear the evidence and I want him to look at the documentation.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         He has rejected this application in the past why do you think he will speak.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I want him to make the decision whether the Defence Counsel was (unclear).
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         He has already made it Judge he rejected it I want to go to the High give me time to go to the High court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I'm postponing this matter until Monday morning 9:00 here in this court for Colonel Venter to decide until when this case will be postponed.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I'm going to the High court as I move out of here.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I'm sure, you are welcome to do teat, I'm sure that you will.not postpone the case for the week or two for trial. Yc,_ will have more than sufficient to approach the High court.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Thank you, I'm going immediately a'ter here.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         You are welcome to do that. Mr. Cc _irt orderly.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Can i make my comments Jude.lg
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The comment I would like at the State if the court allows me is that the court has on record. the court has on record in our last appearance that the purpose of coming before court tc-Jay is to establish whether the documents are available or not (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Ja but there is a disputed at this stage .,11r. Defence because the Prosecutor. said ,a.coording to her .information .vhich she received from General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  indeed. you were  submitted to that Sergeant Mono is necessary to come and  explain to the court why documentat'on were submitted to you and if not why could he not furnish you with the necessary documentation. It is not now for this court without the witnesspresent here to tecide on that High courts order.
 BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And also what is on record Judge is that this court is in content of the High court in pursuing this matter when the court the order is clear and unambiguous that the proceedings of the court of Senior Departmental judge are stay until such time and (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Of cause yes I'm not saying now we are continuing with the trial.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 What has been happening we have record of incident of the contents of court where for one possible reason with the other with a serious of seeking more than one seeking one of which Is this one and in those seeking we continue to in contend of the High court and Defence Counsel (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         This is part of (unclear) this is only a postponement.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And Defence Counsel and The Accused by indication approachably accomplices into this process of content.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Like I said this is not the trial, I'm rot in contempt of the High court. My order is just that this case is postponed until Colonel Venter is available and until the witness is available to comment, tell the court why documentation according to him he has not been handed over to you and if not why he could not hand over the rest of the documentation and by having that information on record you can go back to the High court the testimony of General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  then, do you understand what I mean.

GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         Judge may I come in here?
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I think I'm the main person in this whole charade.  Colonel Segomotso Bailey Mmono is out his got it in writing in the documentation in front of you Judge where he and whoever is supporting him in this Section that they have given documents. His asking my attorney that they meet at the State attorney but you now you are creating a new scenario here where involve Colonel Venter who has already rejected my request for the documents and what's this going to, I'm being dragged to the court every time.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  actually wants to maKe, an appointment with those State attorney.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         He has requested that,that they meet at the State attorneys (unclear) but you are creating another scenario again. It looks Ilke a dog breakfast now and-I just need those documents to defend myself in of-la-9es.

6)      MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: I want General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  in court. I think that will also assist you because then you can say on record what documentation you could get hold of and it was not and why not and you can use that.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I want General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  in the High court not this court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         You can use that in your High court application again.
GOODMAN MANYANYA PHIRI:         I don't General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  in this court Judge I want him in the High court and I'm going to make an order immediately I move out of here.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         You can definitely do that but I'm postponing this matter until 9:00 Monday morning. Madam Prosecutor General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  will he be available for next week?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   I believe his seating also next week but I will confirm at first with him as soon as I finished my court schedule for today.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         What do you mean his also seating next week?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   (unclear) one of the members on the, I will conclude (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         On one of the (unclear) matters?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I'm not sure.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   But I will confirm whether he is available and then if necessarily I've got the contact numbers of both the assessors and I will contact Colonel Semelane. I even have the contact number of Mr. Mosiza and I will inform you but if I can't get hold of them it will at least be convene on r.londay just to get what the problem is when Colonel, the General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  will be available.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Judge I don't understand the purpose of contacting my Prosecution Mr. Mosiza my clients attorney. What is the Prosecutor has to do with my client.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Madam Prosecutor mabe  that will not be necessarily to speak to the attorney himself you may speak to the Defence Counsel Colonel Semelane.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   He doesn't have a cell. phone Colonel Semelane if I cant. get hold of him I can just leave a message with Mr. -Mosiza.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Okay but it is not relevant is not real!y a role player at
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 I've got his numbers but the office number is not working.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         The case is been postponed until Monday morning 9:00 where Colonel Venter will preside in the postponement and hopefully General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  will also be available to explain what happened. Thank you Mr. Court orderly. Just (unclear) on the documents for page Colonel. Monday is the 12th of July. You are available Colonel Semelane?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes Judge I will be in court, I will be available at 9:00 in the morning, thanks.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you Colonel you are excused.

7)      (Court postponed for Monday the 12th of July 2004)
(Court resumes Monday the 12th of July 2004) (Court is in session)

MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         In the matter of the State versus Phiri the time is 9:10 onthe 12th of July 2004. The court is constituted at this stage with myself Colonel Venter as well Lieutenant Colonel Mosiyane the other assessor Colonel Lorraine Mametsi Mabusela. I have been informed at cause at this stage and as therefore not been asked to be present at this junction in time mainly because the matter that is now to be decided does not deal with the substance of the case but as I understand iS a remand or an _ application for a remand from the parties involved. Consequently the assessor is excused from these proceedings. The matter as I understand it, it comes before the court after a postponement on the 6th of July 2004 by Colonel (unclear) Botha and the question as I understand it is what the status of the Defence is in respect of the documentation that was ordered to be supplied to the Defence per the High court order of April 2004 if I recall correctly and if any what comment the Prosecution has in respect the aip. Colonel Semelane.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: As the court pleases. Judge we` appeared before court last week as the court has leaded there too. On the basis of a previous arrangement with the court which arrangement is (unclear) that they would come before court and in the event the document in terms of the High court order have not been furnished to The Accused. A matter would be postponed (unclear) until such time that there is that compliance in the full agreement with the parties as to that compliance and the matter be reinstated accordingly. The basis of coming to such an agreement was that we shouldn't be send to be in contact or the High Court order which is perfectly clear and the court before which we appear today  considered that it is clearly stated the matter would be sate at the Departmental court until such time and the documents which The Accused requires in order to prepare for his defence in this matter have been furnished by the State in terms of the said High court order. Unfortunately of fortunate." depending on which side one is standing when we appeared before court last week as the court has also indicated or mentioned before Colonel Botha the previous agreement was obviously (unclear) upon apparently because my learned friend on the Prosecution side put up a statement to the fact that there has been compliments and therefore it dispute and sued is whether there has been compliance which obviously we disputed. When the court asked from Defence Counsel whether his documents had been furnished to The Accused he indicated that the documents had not been furnished. He also indicated Judge if I may -call correctly that we then also disputed the jurisdiction of this court to go ....to that inquiry is to (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Sorry to interrupt you that is to say to determine the documents had indeed been provided or not?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: The inquiry is to whether the. oh order has been complied with. Yes the, what imaged from my learned ffend it %vas a sort of some partial compliances, some document had been :_rnished and other documents were not and The Accused himself went on a: length as it would appear from the record explaining what was furnished whet is outstanding. It would appear or the response if I still recall correctly to my =ejection one on the matter not been postponed (unclear) two on the inquiry or .5 to compliance or otherwise but that court was that loOk what we are doing nc is to postpone the matter to the following week so that the presiding Judge in :he matter can deal with this matters it. was like .  situation that anticipated .'.'hen the previous_ agreement was, reached here; was arrived yet and that i the light of the. apparent coming of Colonel Venter presiding Judge in this rr-:-,:ter to Pretoria the following week the matter may as well left to him to consider :-_se issues so that is the basis that we are here that the court will then today Dok these issues, those issues.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you for that.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes. Now that you are at arden for a short past what has transpired in the mean while Judge is that as we left the court The Accused went to see his instructing attorney for the record or for emphasis sake the Defence Counsel before this court is not the instructing attorney in the High court matter so The Accused had to go and see Mosiza's attorneys who are dealing with the question of these documents and who are instructing attorneys at the High court matter. On the conclusion of those consultation and the briefing given to me both by The Accused and the instructing attorney concerned is that an agreement had been reached or has been reached between the attorney concerned and the State. My understanding I will make a letter available I may do so may be it will help my address in the court, if the court peruses this agreement (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Could I just have the date of that letter?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 The letter is dated 7th July giving you one full of Prosecution Counsel and one for the court.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes thank you. Can I ask you to read the letter into the record for us pleas?

8)      BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 As the court pleases. Judge I have before me the letter as directed to read on record, the letter is intituled Mosiza attorneys. The date its 20 7th July 2004. The letter which was send by tele-fax trans fissiongoes to State attorneys from Mr. Mosiza. Its a one-page letter. It states the reference as 12:35/ 04/z36 and the State attorneys reference, I'm sorry I correct that the State attorneys reference is 12:35/04/Z36 and Mr. Mosiza's refe-ence is Mr. Mosiza/ P0/27 it reads dear Sir/ (unclear) M.G Phiri versus the Min seer of Defence and this is underlined. Paragraph 1: We referrer to the stove matter and to telephone conversation between your Miss Makhofe and our Mr. Mosiza yesterday as well as today. Paragraph 2: We confirm that c_t instructions are to humbly request yourselves to instruct you client to contact tne relevant head of legal department and to advice them of the court order with :articular reference to stay the proceedings in-the Departmental court by postponing sanne.,Se.ne.deanuhtil full compliance with a court order is finalised, failure upon we advice that  your client would be in the circumstances be subjecting all tre despondences to contempt of court which as we all know the darer consequences of which \tiould not be necessarily as we expect your full cooperation here ir. Paragraph In.  the light of our discussion with your selves we now hold instructions to attend the meeting and (unclear) for the full disclosure of information or documents sort in terms of the order. Paragraph 4: and this is the last paragraph, we await your response. Yours faithfully Mosiza attorneys K.S. J Mosiza uuencode. Judge this is the letter I've just read into the record.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Now as Judge as I was saying with respect to the extent therefore that Defence Counsel was briefed on these issues. The understanding was convert to Defence Counsel that there is the that understanding now that between Mosiza and the State attorney that the Head of legal division will make the necessary directions in terms of compliances as indicated and that what will follow thereafter assuming this directions have convert to Prosecution Counsel and the court going in accordance with 'them the matter would be postponed (unclear). The letter goes further and there was also to me to understand that meeting or meetings will be proceeded with to resolve this speedily and that the final position with the rest is to the documents and the compliance and if there is difference on that the matter will be referred back to the H'eh court to consider the question of compliance of otherwise in the event there being a dispute and looking at the optimistic side of things if those engagements are successful and there is compliance that will be communicated to Prosecution Counsel and I believe also to the Defence Counsel, to my client here Ccionel Phiri such that the matter will be reinstated and the matter will procee again in that event before the same honourable court to its, hopefully to it's conclusion. As already indicated Judge in the event in the unlikely event of a dispute is to compliance or otherwise that issue would then be left to the High court tt decide. And finally Judge of cause in the event of there being no compliance    this agreement as we understand it (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Would pleas continue.
SE M ELANF:               Yes this is just my final point Judge that in the unlikely event I would like to rephrase myself in that fashion, in the e\;ent that the agreement is not complied with. The dare consequences. is in. gated-in this letter or be followed by way of seeking the assista.n.t.atThe. court tn7g.:ugh some kind of warrant of execution. I may indicate that of cause Mr. M s 12 vies saying. This would be a reluctant step to take but it is circumstances that may force him to that but as indicating in the letter it will convenience -everybody as I understand it 35            doesn't look nice to be dragging Minister to court on failure               comply and this things get reported and the nice picture doesn't arise to the goings on in the department so there is that in the background and as officers, his an officer on the court that made the order and there are also officers here in this Department of Defence. I'm sure we are together to say that we don't want a negative pictures of our employer to be thrown around because its an old story to people who write stories to say there's been a warrant issues is contempt by certain parties including the minister of government and all this kind of things so he did indicate that I must mention that it's a, his worry of that and that's why he uses the strong face if I were to repeat it dare consequences, those are my submissions Judge on the issue.

9)      MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Defence before I give the Prosecution opportunity to comment.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Is just a side to be marked so later of Mr. Mosiza raised (unclear) question that was now obviously it was not mentioned it was not raised is not in the letter at least and it wasn't argued but it does touch upon the independents of the judiciary if one accepts the indication of Mr. Mosiza's letter it would appear that the Minister or the Head of legal department as the letter referees.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes Sir.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Is in a position to prescribe to this court v,nether it shall continue or not. Which is of cause an interesting cuestion (unclear) to background of the independents the judiciary but as I said its in a s de remark.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: .It's a side, even if it's in a side Judce I do not fully agree, we will be sharing views here Judge and I'll give my view.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Not necessarily on what Mr. Mosiza may have written or may have not written. I'm talking now from what I've seen happening :s that there is a High court order on the matter be now the independents of the judicial.   The High court has made the.order therefore. the.judiciary has made and order.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Ab.sOlutely. '
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes that, that court that made an orter is the High court.  That order has direct implications for an inferior court at the Departmental court That order was made a few months ago and the inferior court has not =pilaf with the order (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         That's your contention?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It's my contention I've raised it previously Judge as you will recall and the record could bare out and the view which the same court took on that occasion was like when we postponed, when we postponed we are not in verging the order which view with respect is with grated respect is not a correct view because therefore immediately the proceedings are not stared, the proceedings so what, therefore Mr. Mosiza seek to convey Maybe a strong terms but which the representative of the State, the representative of the State agrees with, It is now the Prosecution and even the court because the Department of Defence because this is a creature of (unclear) seeking to implement discipline in the Department of Defence the Departmental court in the department and therefore the State attorney will represent v./here the one looks at the three arms of the State. The State attorney will represent in a court of law and in the same High court. The State attorney would instruct and with grate respect Judge if the State attorney takes, to view therefore that a postponement of the matter is a continuation of the matter it is a contenticus conduct his failure to comply and that this must be brought to the at-tent:on of the relevant authorities who are responsible for conducting this prosecution. I would like to submit that those organs of the State is the State attorney represent abc _ind by that view. If a different view is held then they must get back to their representatives because that representative holds the vie,v to that High court to make- an order so detours the view to the High court, the State attorney would say in the event, in the event had the instructing attorney in that court for Colonel Phiri goes to the High. Would say my Lord instructing their Counsel we agree with this view that postponements of the matter constitutes none comp :once with the order and where will the position of those officers or organs who a-e, the ultimate is that therefore if the State attorney takes that view it is, and that view is in (unclear) with the view of the instructing attorney the-e. it is just that the, therefore the High court will issue those warrants.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:.       All right, meay, I don't want to engage in .ccnverset on or .a discussion prior of the matter.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: over clearly.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes Judge. The point I wished to make I think --ay have not dome Yes.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE: Whether the State attorney that's the question, whether the State attorney is correct or whether the State attorney indeed agrees with your clients instructing attorney that's not the question. The question to my mind is whether whatever action he supports is conveyed to the Head of the legal department of the National Defence Force whether information and such agreement that he May have entered into with the opposing party being instructed attorney for your client does that agreement bind the court? That's the question in the final analysis it is still a decision that must be made on a point that it is eliminate and who is to decide that point back to the court?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: What I gather is that, is that, is that this court wants to put its self at risk. At risk in the sense that as I was saying besides whatever agreements its now bolds down to how this court interprets that High court order and whether the postponements to (unclear) this constitute, compliance or otherwise with that order. Of cause the decision therefore: the decision therefore of cause it is for this court, for this court but it is therefore this court that would like to either take a risk officially or personally to say in the event it says I deemed I have complied because this court will not go on its own to its personal cost to the High court to explain this view. That view w:h contained if it's an official view it should be conveyed by the State attorney 87d if the State attorney does not, takes a different view that is not, that is not ultimately going to be the official view conveyed to the High court., it will mean tr's count if it takes a different view in that interpretation this court will have to engages on attorneys to go and present its view and I guess it is its own cost and it s own cost because the State attorney would have taken a different view. Who e se will represent the official view of this court, it is a State attorney, who else WI represent and if the State attorney does not its back in a different way vs been trying to (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I understand your argument.
SEMELANE. Thank you very much I'm please:: it is that it an (unclear) situation which the court may place its self to if its :'ffers.with the State attorney.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Certainly interesting.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Very interesting. very interesting, very interestino I've been trying to, they've got a word for it where they say: you t-.ink also all angles 35                backs and forwards and cross wards
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         (unclear).
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Is in (unclear) thank you very much Sir.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you very much, Major.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Thank You Judge. Yes indeed I have few points I would like to touch upon. I would have to agree with my learned colleague of the Defence that to be in contempt of a High court order certainly it does not convey the image of the Department of Defence. In a suitable manner for (unclear) I'll give that we did not (unclear) on the High court order. complied with this. That was the arguments submitted last week. My learned colleagues further argument that the State attorney holds that having said the matters down for postponement had not stay the proceedings, sustain certan disputes that as well apart from the fact that this opinion of the State attorneys only here say conveyed by my learned colleague. I have nothing to such effect in writing. The fact that the matter was set down to determine whether the State has complied with the High court order in a reasonable period of time is the only that, giving the State a reasonable period to comply with the High court order and that I cannot be postponed (unclear) and leave the State to v,ofth of comply or not comply just to bring all the parties together and to say v.e have compied vve have not complied, doing that postponement on the 6th of July the State indeed had indicated that yes we have complied and we would ke to set the matter down (unclear) trial. On that day I was also then appointee as a new Prosecution Counsel. The Accused during that appearance before the honourable Judge Colonel Botha indicated that he would be going to the High court. On rn,,, eturn to the office I briefed Ms Karen Boshoff who on s'de went to (unclear) General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  to indicate that they might be another High court application all so and we would like to get in writing that as far as the State is concerned we have complied with the High court order. I was informed and I also have the tette- here to say that, that which have been could be complied with was comp:ied wit-7. The MO documents stir' outstanding according to the Defence u. :hen the apploant if we .look at the High court .application or not able do simply not -either.exis.t.. W. not in'.8 position  to hand them over they do not exist so we nave 'complied with the High court order. My learned colleague then declared -.Tat this dispute We say we have complied they say we have not. Then this fete- which my learned colleague has handed over today from Mr. Mosiza's office is say that you a e like all the parties together so that we can stay at the proceeding or until such. tiHe you must stand the proceedings, I was informed on Friday that is the 9th of July telephonically by Ms Karen Boshoff he had been in contact with General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  that indeed they had got into around table with Miss Mokgale of the State attorneys office and General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  and they have agreed that there is only one more document which Mr. Mosiza would require and even though this document does not form part of the High court order we would comply with that instruction to get those documents that would be the founding letter or the founding affidavit of the riggers of wrongs which (unclear) General Mashowa'a investigated and that we would (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         In respect of whom?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Of the original documents, I think Lieutenant Colonel Goodman Manyanya Phiri.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         His founding statement?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   His own yes Judge. That is what I've got from Ms Karen Boshoff.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   It is very strange yes Judge indeed I also found it very curious 1, make sure that I have that in writing to hand in over to the court this morning because obviously telephonic conversations between parties and especially run through a third party might be also regarded then as (unclear) in that regard. Before I left the office I have not received that and on the 6th of July when we appeared before Colonel Botha the instruction was that either they oet General Segomotso Bailey Mmono 's convey this person to the court or have a vi:tnesses evidence and there after we would be in a position to say that we will seat down and trial there. The State is in a position to say once again General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  we were only going to gather this morning to determine whether we would require General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  to come and testify in that regard because once again there's how additional matter the letter referred to or which this court has :7 his hands dated the 7th. of July is now as far as the State concerned outdated because a new agreement has been reached by Miss Mokgale and Genera. yono regarding and Mr. Mosiza regarding the only document outstanding and :hiis.was reached sometime between the 7th and 9th .14:30 on the 9th of July when I have received this instruction from Ms Karen Boshoff. So as far as the State is concerned we are left with three options. We can either now postpone today 7pr. later dates in this week and at later time for General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  to convey this person to the court under oath or we could have the State thing go to the High court and say we have complied as far as (unclear) impossible to comply and then set the matter down for trial or just the later date to confirm that this High court application of this, we have gone back to the High court to say that we have complied to a later date which obviously is difficult because the honourable Judge is not residing in the Pretoria are, together with the fact of one of their assessor is on course for the rest of the year or we can postpone to Friday to confirm that this document which General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  on behalf of the State has agreed even though it does not form part of the High court order we will hand over and then on Friday we all get together again and then set the matter down  for trial. So those are the three options as far as the State would also enlighten. In terms of the constitution and The Accused right to speed trial would with this matter to be resolved as soon as possible. The State does not wish to go into (unclear) the dispute in this regard but feels that the matter should proceed and not necessarily just because we have been given instructions to hand over this final document and General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  has agreed to it, for that sack we will agree to it and then proceed even though it does not form part of the High court order. State maintains that we have complied as far a (unclear) possible with the High court order documents that are existed were handed over.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         So your suggestions are that we rather General Segomotso Bailey Mmono  testy about the compliance or that we wait until such time preferably later this week to determine whether the agreement that you have now told the court about in respect of Colonel Phiri's founding document where that was also been handed over.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         And your third request was with possibility?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   That we postpone it for later to a-other Senior Major Judge just to here it for the State and then to go to the High :ourt to say we have  complied and at that stage maybe 2 or 3 weeks from now if is possible is to get a date before the High court and then to get all the .parties :ack together again and then postpone for trial.-
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Anything else?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Nothing else thank you Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         1 would like to have the Defence's response; I would also like to hear because this whole matter deals with (unc'ear) just an opinion.  The original High court order postpones the matter for a fixed time if I'm not mistaken, does it not read that the State has provided with a certain time scale within in which to comply?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: It was within 7 days and this is has not happened and obviously there's now a strong case for contempt in the event the, because (unclear) it will pass the 7 days Judge. If the Judge would like to have any reply. My reply Judge will be very short. One the contention or the submission that the letter we have now placed on record maybe outdated given a certain subsequent agreement, Defence this agreement has not been placed before the court if such agreement does exist and a copy thereof I have been furnished with to the  accused to look at so with difficulty (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:  You have (unclear) my instructions in fact to such. 

10)   BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY:                 Yes, yes, yes, yes, in fact the instructions are there to, we should get that copy if there is (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         (unclear).
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes as I say I was in contact with Mr. Mosiza also until late on Friday, if there was anything that, he would have told me and he didn't and secondly I have already stated this in my main submissions that in the event of the disputes is to compliance or otherwise the matter need then to go to the court concerned the High court to look into the matte- it cc:Lid appear my learned friend supports that view to the extend that she says they have complied and they would like to put that. that they make that submission to the High. We would like to also go to the High where we may meet on the basis that there's been no compliance so the view that the matter goes to the High court it's the, the Defence would support as the position that can bring finality. If I want to say maybe on the aside but maybeis now on the opinion on prE.,c,tical side of things that we, the matter may not proceed as I can see at the HiciT. court on an argent basis. I doubt it can proceed or that basis so if it goes to the High court it will go to a normal roil and if it goes to a normal roll we are already talking months. The case court cannot see an. agency in this. The agency car. only arise if the,_ if there's none compliance with the High court order and this matter is postponed' to a fix date which is a burning issue then the High court car a reason to look at on an agent basis on the failure to comply from that point of \levy when we seek to execute its order and giving that already 7days was ordered and it has not been recompiled it so that wouit make a case for agency        the case of Going on a basis that we going to look at this none compliance without contend simply none compliance is just a dispute now because is now in the court it would be facing a dispute in the ordinary cause that the parties share different views into this and the court will consider this, will have to consider this. The court will have to argue then on what basis can matters of this superior court to take precedence on matters that have come to the High court and be put on a higher roll, we may not make that agency and if anyone of us now in terms of my client and this (unclear) I don't think the (unclear) would go on an agent basis to solve a disagreement of that nature it would go on ordinary cause. If that is so then we are looking at months already and it may (unclear) by the time other assessor had finish the course and he Maybe looking at coming back now that we are at this part of the end July sometime early next year with (intervenes).
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Thank you for pointing that out.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Thank you Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Any final remarks?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   None Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         All right the court will stand down to decide in this matter and the time now is 9:54. Will it be possible for us tc meet in the morning, tomorrow morning?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Colonel Semelane?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: I have no difficulty; tomorrow mo-ning I'll give this court precedence.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         I'd appreciate that it should not take much of your time, could I ask that we meet before 9:00 at 8:30 maybe?
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   Yes Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Then we need not interrupt the matters set down rottenly for this court.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes Judge.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         We should be done by 9:00 tomorrow morning—
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   As the court pleases Judge.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes-its not now on this arrangeme-it we are getting is not on that question of the later agreement the member (inteTenes,.

11)   MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Of the 9' of July?
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yes the subsequent agreement.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         Yes.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: And because the member went to go and consult with this instructing attorney on that issue.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   If I do get the documents today it might have been faxed through now whiles I've been in court. I can fax that through to Colonel Semelane's office.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         If you could do that, that would be appreciated I think if I could make the following arrangement then that in (unclear) of any further arguments any of the parties which to make flowing from whatever may appear from such an agreement the matters then postponed to until tomorrow morning at 8:30 and if no further application has made to be heard before that finding is made then that arrangement stands for 8:30 tomorrow morning.
BHEKUMNDENI QEDUSIZI PENUEL SIMELANE SC,MILITARY: Yeah, it is in order. The member was just indicating that to have wait further delay he would be prepared to go with Prosecution Counsel to her offices to receive the letter.
MICHAEL ALBERTUS VENTER, SENIOR MILITARY JUDGE:         You are free to make whatever arrangement suits the both of you on practical terms. Right the time now is 9:57 the tape will be stopped the matter stands down, thank you.
PROSECUTION COUNSEL Ms PAKENDORF:   As the court pleases.

(Court adjourns for tomorrow morning at 8:30)

Jacob Zuma (Mr) and some unnamable character